sergeant stanley broadbent 2nd/19th london

[grahamshaw]

this is my first posting so apologies if its lacking in any way! i have hit the wall a little in my research into grandads service. i have his numbers - 6197 and 612466 and know for sure he served in the middle east eventually being wounded on 18/4/18 in jordan. what i cant nail down is when he actuall enlisted and when he eventually left the army. his marriage certificate from may 1919 gives his occupation still as soldier and his rank now at CSM. his medal card shows he was finally in the middlesex regiment with the number105863 which has a prefix i cant make out.

if anyone can help in any way to complete the puzzle i will be eternally grateful

[kenf48]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Have you looked at the researching a soldier link at the top of the page?

The London Regiment was a Territorial Force Regiment.

http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htmsee

I'm surprised some of the London Regiment experts haven't responded yet, no doubt one will be along soon to put us right

The 3197 four digit number was first issued around October/November 1914

see the indispensable http://armyservicenu...ion-london.html

The 2/ indicates a second line unit, initially these Battalions did not go overseas and were engaged on Home Defence. As the above link shows following the Military Service Act all became liable for overseas service and the 2/19th Bn went overseas in June 1916, which fits with the medal index card. In 1917 all Territorial soldiers were renumbered and issued with a six figure number.

Again see http://www.1914-1918...renumbering.htm

After he was wounded he would, in all probability have gone off the strength of the London Regiment. He may have even been repatriated to the UK. When he recovered from his wounds it's likely he would have been posted to another Regiment, i.e. the Middlesex. He would have retained his rank, and it is quite possible later promoted to CSM. As a TF soldier the terms of his engagement were different to those who enlisted for the duration of the war but it's possible he did not go overseas again. To a certain extent that would depend on his fitness classification after his recovery. As he was still serving in 1919 he was probably fit for active duty.

He may have gone on the 'Z' Reserve which was disbanded on 2 March 1920.

It looks like a 'G' prefix which means General Service and was used by a number of Regiments. Interestingly the medals were not claimed and returned under the terms of Kings Regulations 1743 (which effectively meant if not claimed within 10 years were melted down). It may mean he'd simply moved. The numbers on the card refer to the Rolls held at TNA at Kew, they may give more information about his Battalion in the Middlesex which could indicate when discharged.

I found a Pte 6198 Bagshaw 2/19th who was killed in France on 6th September 1916 so Stanley's service probably follows the outline on the LLT until he was wounded.

Ken

[grahamshaw]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Have you looked at the researching a soldier link at the top of the page?

The London Regiment was a Territorial Force Regiment.

http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htmsee

I'm surprised some of the London Regiment experts haven't responded yet, no doubt one will be along soon to put us right

The 3197 four digit number was first issued around October/November 1914

see the indispensable http://armyservicenu...ion-london.html

The 2/ indicates a second line unit, initially these Battalions did not go overseas and were engaged on Home Defence. As the above link shows following the Military Service Act all became liable for overseas service and the 2/19th Bn went overseas in June 1916, which fits with the medal index card. In 1917 all Territorial soldiers were renumbered and issued with a six figure number.

Again see http://www.1914-1918...renumbering.htm

After he was wounded he would, in all probability have gone off the strength of the London Regiment. He may have even been repatriated to the UK. When he recovered from his wounds it's likely he would have been posted to another Regiment, i.e. the Middlesex. He would have retained his rank, and it is quite possible later promoted to CSM. As a TF soldier the terms of his engagement were different to those who enlisted for the duration of the war but it's possible he did not go overseas again. To a certain extent that would depend on his fitness classification after his recovery. As he was still serving in 1919 he was probably fit for active duty.

He may have gone on the 'Z' Reserve which was disbanded on 2 March 1920.

It looks like a 'G' prefix which means General Service and was used by a number of Regiments. Interestingly the medals were not claimed and returned under the terms of Kings Regulations 1743 (which effectively meant if not claimed within 10 years were melted down). It may mean he'd simply moved. The numbers on the card refer to the Rolls held at TNA at Kew, they may give more information about his Battalion in the Middlesex which could indicate when discharged.

I found a Pte 6198 Bagshaw 2/19th who was killed in France on 6th September 1916 so Stanley's service probably follows the outline on the LLT until he was wounded.

Ken

ken

thank you very much for responding. i have looked at the " researching a soldier" but have already had the archives checked and seems there is no sign of him on ancestry. i have had conflicting advice on the significance of the four digit number ie one person told me it meant he was probably in the army pre outbreak and enlisted from the st pancras area and another person told me it didnt!! i realised his medals had been returned and this is in itself a bit of a mystery. i was under the impression he had never moved out of glossop derbyshire and would have enlisted from his parents address so as you see the date of his joining has wider significance

[kenf48]

ken

thank you very much for responding. i have looked at the " researching a soldier" but have already had the archives checked and seems there is no sign of him on ancestry. i have had conflicting advice on the significance of the four digit number ie one person told me it meant he was probably in the army pre outbreak and enlisted from the st pancras area and another person told me it didnt!! i realised his medals had been returned and this is in itself a bit of a mystery. i was under the impression he had never moved out of glossop derbyshire and would have enlisted from his parents address so as you see the date of his joining has wider significance

I couldn't find his service record on Ancestry.

A pre-war regular would not have been renumbered, and is unlikely to have served in the London Regiment it was a TF 'Regiment'.

At some stage (i.e.1915) j Pte Broadbent joined the London Regiment.. He may have been in the TF prior to that date, or served elsewhere but without a record, it's difficult to establish. All we can say with certainty is on joining the London Regiment he was given a four figure TF number, which was subsequently changed when all TF numbers were changed to a six digit number. Given the date we can also acknowledge he had volunteered.

http://www.1914-1918.net/tf.htm

I think you can rely on Paul Nixon's research re the enlistment date.

Further research, for example in local newspapers might identify transfers.

For example, Pte Bagshaw was formerly in the RAMC and enlisted in Harrogate and lived in Pately Bridge Yorks

Basic family history research could help, were there any children? When were they born? What was their father's occupation on the certificate?

Did the local newspaper report enlistment/transfer/wounding/wedding?

Ken

[grahamshaw]

thanks again ken i appreciate your interest

graham

[Charles Fair]

Hello Graham

Sorry not to have picked this thread up sooner, I've been off forum for a while. I have an extensive database of those who served in the 19th Londons and can fill in some of the blanks. I have been through the medal rolls in TNA and have a reasonably complete list of those who served, so can tell quite a lot about a man's service from his numbers.

First, he enlisted under the Derby Scheme in late 1915. He was part of large batch (3,000) of RAMC men who was transffered into 60th(London) Division a month or so before it sailed for France. This subject appeared on the GWF a few years ago - click here for more: RAMC transfers to the London Regiment, May 1916

272 of these men ended up in the 2/19th and without exception all men that I have found in this number block (about 6165 to 6408) were previously RAMC - they appear in near alphabetical order in the medal rolls of the 19th Londons. Unfortunately I cant tell you his RAMC number but it almost certainly would have been in the range 77000 to 79000. He would have enlisted in the RAMC somewhere in the country nearer to home, and almost certainly not at St Pancras.

He was therefore allocated the 6197 number in May 1916. As Ken says, he was allocated the 6 digit number in the TF renumbering of March 1917.

This means that he would have arrived in France with 2/19th on 24 June 1916, and left France on 24 Nov 1916 on route for Salonika where he served 6 months before going on to Palestine.

He is listed in FW Eames' book 'The Second Ninteenth' (which you can buy in repro copy from the Naval & Military Press) as having been wounded at Second Jordaon on 30 April 1918. (See page 178.)

He appears in the medal rolls of the Middlesex Regt (BW&VM Rolls, Middlesex Regt page 6156) and that implies he was a Sergeant when he first went overseas. According to that Roll he did not serve overseas with the Middlesex (as it only shows overseas service with the 2/19th). I would hazard a guess that he was sent back to the UK (either to recuperate, or after he had recovered sufficiently to be sent back) and was attached to the Middlesex Regt depot, or perhaps a special reserve bn of the Middlesex - hence the allocation of the Middx number. (The 19th Londons were affiliated to the Middx as the article on TF renumbering shows.)

Its not a lot, but hope this helps fill in a few gaps. Is there any more that you might be able to tell me?

Regards

Charles