Hospital Uniform

[PhilB]

Member Clarke recently posted this picture of men in hospital outfits. They do look quite comfortable - moreso than normal khaki. Were they only used for hospital patients and presumably recycled after use - haven`t I seen cavalrymen wearing something similar for stable duties? Were they designed to be worn by ambulatory patients in and out of hospital, and, if so, why could khaki not be worn outside? Do they attract interest in the modern market for WW1 uniforms?

[Audax]

The topic of Hospital Blues has been broached on the forum before. See Hospital Blues

Can any one add more on the introduction of this outfit?

A

[PhilB]

These don`t appear to be blues though!

[Graham Stewart]

Looks like the 'duck' coloured working dress often seen worn by those working in the kitchens, etc.

[centurion]

Can any one add more on the introduction of this outfit?

There are photos of hospital blues being worn in the second half of the 19th century, indeed there is a photo of three Crimean amputees at Chatham wearing such uniforms, they appear much the same shade as in the photo at the top of these thread and those guys are definitely not in working dress. There is also a good photo of a South African war survivor at Netley Hospital in 1900 in a similar uniform (and shade) [see plates 18 and 91 from 'The Victorian and Edwardian Army from old photographs' Fabb and Carman]. Incidentally the duck working dress usually appears lighter in photos

[FROGSMILE]

They are 'washed out' hospital blues (they were frequently laundered for reasons of infection) . It was common for them to lighten over time. Also, the red ties worn only with this dress are unmistakable and would not have been worn with canvas duck fatigue uniforms. In B&W photos one often sees variations in the shade of uniform caused by this laundering and small differences in manufacturers cloth. There is a famous church with wall murals painted by a well known artist whilst convalescing that shows the laundering process carried out by the men themselves once fit enough.

[Graham Stewart]

They are 'washed out' ( they were frequently laundered for reasons of infection) hospital blues. It was common for them to lighten over time. Also, the red ties worn only with this dress are unmistakable and would not have bieeen worn with canvas duck fatigue uniforms. In B&W photos one often sees variations in the shade of uniform caused by this laundering and small differences in manufacturers cloth. There is a famous church with wall murals that shows the laundering process carried out by the men themselves once fit enough.

While agreeing they could be washed-out hospital blues, surely those able bodied enough to work in kitchens etc around hospitals would be allowed working dress to save general wear & tear and dirt from such tasks getting onto their blues??

[centurion]

While agreeing they could be washed-out hospital blues, surely those able bodied enough to work in kitchens etc around hospitals would be allowed working dress to save general wear & tear and dirt from such tasks getting onto their blues?? Yes but not usually with ties

Who said anything about them working around the hospital? Hospital blues were used as a sort of walking out uniform for convalescents. There seem to have been a number of reasons including:

a] Their service dress was sometimes too mucked up to be wearable and the blues provided something to wear until they got kitted out again

b] They could be washed and reissued much more easily than uniforms

c] The blues with their turnbacks, ties etc showed that they were convalescent soldiers and not idlers or shirkers, nor AWOLs. A wearer would be given privileges (and/or discounts, free tickets etc) in some places (eg Cinemas)

d] there were some places the powers that be did not want the recovering wounded going (eg pubs) and a landlord could be ordered not to serve men in blues or to stand them treats.

[4thGordons]

I believe the lightness in appearance (and the darkness of the red tie) is largely a function of the nature of orthochromatic film.

several of us played at length with this an while a go.

he is the best illustration of the effect on colour reproduction (in a long and involved but ultimately useful thread)

CLICK ME!

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Who said anything about them working around the hospital? Hospital blues were used as a sort of walking out uniform for convalescents. There seem to have been a number of reasons including:

a] Their service dress was sometimes too mucked up to be wearable and the blues provided something to wear until they got kitted out again

b] They could be washed and reissued much more easily than uniforms

c] The blues with their turnbacks, ties etc showed that they were convalescent soldiers and not idlers or shirkers, nor AWOLs. A wearer would be given privileges (and/or discounts, free tickets etc) in some places (eg Cinemas)

d] there were some places the powers that be did not want the recovering wounded going (eg pubs) and a landlord could be ordered not to serve men in blues or to stand them treats.

I concur with all that and going by the murals and other things I have read in past, once a man was fit enough to get out of bed part of his rehabilitation was to assist with some selected light duties around the wards. This was not all the time of course and fitted in around the trips out.

[FROGSMILE]

I believe the lightness in appearance (and the darkness of the red tie) is largely a function of the nature of orthochromatic film.

several of us played at length with this an while a go.

he is the best illustration of the effect on colour reproduction (in a long and involved but ultimately useful thread)

CLICK ME!

Chris

I don't dispute the effect of film technology of the time, but I believe that the frequent washing and variations in manufacture also played a part in the varied shades that one sees in so many different photos.

[PhilB]

Khaki WW1 uniforms seem very popular (and expensive) - is there a collectors` or reenactors` market for these outfits?

[clarke]

G'day,

Here is the other photo that I picked up with the first. Numbered on the back is 24. The first photo is numbered 23. You will notice that all soldiers are dressed in the same outfit so it can be guessed that there is 22 photos before these two with a possibility of similar dressed soldiers. I believe that they are convalescent hospital.

[clarke]

The second photo shown is of a group of Aussies at Convalescent Hospital, Woodcote Park, Epsom. The Dead-Heads. Note amoung them is displayed the same uniform (though not as neatly nor as uniformly worn, clearly the same cut/ shade). As Frogsmile comments "frequent washing and variations in manufacture also played a part in the varied shades that one sees in so many different photos, spot on mate."

Cheers Clarke

[clarke]

A close up of Aussie outfits.

Cheers Clarke

[centurion]

I concur with all that and going by the murals and other things I have read in past, once a man was fit enough to get out of bed part of his rehabilitation was to assist with some selected light duties around the wards.

But not, I think, working in the kitchens! I've seen an account by one man who volunteered to be the ward barber and kept everyone's hair neat (who did his?) - he admitted being defeated by a wiry haired West Indian soldier.

[FROGSMILE]

While agreeing they could be washed-out hospital blues, surely those able bodied enough to work in kitchens etc around hospitals would be allowed working dress to save general wear & tear and dirt from such tasks getting onto their blues??

I doubt that their duties extended to the kitchens, just laundering and other 'light duties', but whilst listed as wounded/convalescing 'blues' is all they wore and their G1098 clothing was taken into store until they regained fitness.

[centurion]

I doubt that their duties extended to the kitchens, just laundering and other 'light duties', but whilst listed as wounded/convalescing 'blues' is all they wore and their G1098 clothing was taken into store until they regained fitness.

Given that in most cases of hospitalised wounded the uniform would have at least one hole and significant blood stains and might often have been cut away in order to treat the wound at a dressing station I suspect that much was not re issuable. Given that many of those in hospital blues are shown wearing their service caps (which after 1916 they would be unlikely to have been wearing when wounded) it would seem likely that at some time they had been reunited with their kit.

[PhilB]

Khaki WW1 uniforms seem very popular (and expensive) - is there a collectors` or reenactors` market for these outfits?

I don`t recall ever seeing one in a museum - in fact, I don`t ever recall seeing one at all. Do any still exist?

[FROGSMILE]

Given that in most cases of hospitalised wounded the uniform would have at least one hole and significant blood stains and might often have been cut away in order to treat the wound at a dressing station I suspect that much was not re issuable. Given that many of those in hospital blues are shown wearing their service caps (which after 1916 they would be unlikely to have been wearing when wounded) it would seem likely that at some time they had been reunited with their kit.

Their issue kit was and still is bagged and tagged up and anything serviceable placed in store. Unserviceable items, including holed and bloodstained uniform, was destroyed, usually by incineration. Wounded were then issued with a 'kit' of necessaries, including 2 suits of hospital blues, head-dress, underwear, washing and shaving gear and shoes/boots. The sick kit was returned when the soldier was either returned to duty, or discharged as unfit. Pyjamas were held and issued by the hospitals whilst casualties were bed-ridden and 'demands' and 'dues out' sustained by the regional ordnance stores depots.

[centurion]

Their issue kit was and still is bagged and tagged up and anything serviceable placed in store.

Pyjamas were held and issued by the hospitals whilst casualties were bed-ridden and 'demands' and 'dues out' sustained by the regional ordnance stores depots.

A couple of genuine "I ask because I want to know" questions

1] Given that many soldiers in hospital blues are photoed wearing their appropriate service caps (just look at the photo at the top of this thread) how did they get hold of them?

2] When did pyjamas replace night shirts in military hospitals?

[FROGSMILE]

A couple of genuine "I ask because I want to know" questions

1] Given that many soldiers in hospital blues are photoed wearing their appropriate service caps (just look at the photo at the top of this thread) how did they get hold of them?

2] When did pyjamas replace night shirts in mdilitary hospitals?

1. Stores that issued hospital blues held the standard pattern SD caps on the racks (along with the other items in the 'kit', including footwear),this is not unusual and quite normal in a clothing store. I am sure that some soldiers retained their own favourite caps - as you said these had been held in battalion 'B Echelons' since 1916 and men have also obtained 'buckshees' since time immemorial. What is on held on your AB1157 and what you actually have are two different things. Again nothing unusual about that.

2. I do not know when pyjamas replaced nightshirts, but I was using the word as a generic in any case. 'Nightclothes' might be a better term for the pedantic. I believe it was just officers (and then not all) who would have worn their own pyjamas at that time, as they did not partake of the 'issue' kit. .

[Andrew Upton]

Khaki WW1 uniforms seem very popular (and expensive) - is there a collectors` or reenactors` market for these outfits?

I don`t recall ever seeing one in a museum - in fact, I don`t ever recall seeing one at all. Do any still exist?

At least one major reproducer of kit (now out of business) made Hospital Blues, so there certainly is a market for them.

Original WW2 dated pieces seem to turn up more often than Great War dated pieces, the same as original khaki items really in terms of rarity. WW2 dated shirts and ties in unissued condition are still very common today, the jackets and trousers rather less common.

[robins2]

]

At least one major reproducer of kit (now out of business) made Hospital Blues, so there certainly is a market for them.

Original WW2 dated pieces seem to turn up more often than Great War dated pieces, the same as original khaki items really in terms of rarity. WW2 dated shirts and ties in unissued condition are still very common today, the jackets and trousers rather less common.

a few more examples wounded uniforms

[centurion]

1. Stores that issued hospital blues held the standard pattern SD caps on the racks (along with the other items in the 'kit', including footwear),this is not unusual and quite normal in a clothing store.

And the appropriate cap badges as well? There are photos in which a variety of different badges are visible as well as a variety of caps including different Scottish ones. I'm, struggling with the concept that hospital store would hold such a variety. Many (most) men would arrive from the front sans service cap.