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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Instructors at a School of Musketry France


Tyneside Chinaman

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Good evening all,

I picked up this photo a few weeks back and thought it may generate a bit of debate.

French carte postale and the huts shout behind the lines in France or Belgium.

I have done close ups which I will post seperately.

regards

John

post-27843-007151100 1283970624.jpg

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From l to r

R SCOTS (BY SHAPE OF BADGE, ARMY PHYSICAL TRAINING STAFF, NTHBLD FUS OR R INNIS FUS, MIDDLESEX REGT, ARMY CYCLIST CORPS.

FRONT

IRISH GUARDS, SCHOOL OF MUSKETRY, GORDONS, HAMPSHIRES

edit HAVING SCANNED AGAIN AT 1200 DPI CAN NOW TELL THAT THE ACC SGT IS ACTUALLY SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE REGT

post-27843-064555100 1283970813.jpg

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NEXT

REAR R FUSILIERS, NOT SURE CHESHIRES OR E YORKS, RIFLE BDE OR POST OFFICE RIFLES, NOTTS & DERBY

FRONT, R FUSILIERS, 5TH SEAFORTHS, BLACK WATCH, WELSH REGT, U/K HIGHLAND REGT

post-27843-041972500 1283971054.jpg

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NEXT ROW

SGT MAJOR SCHOOL OF MUSKETRY, LOYAL REGT NOTE CROSSED SWORDS WORN AS A COLLAR BADGE, MIDDLESEX REGT, R MUNSTER FUSILIERS (WITH A GLASS THE TIGER STANDS OUT)

post-27843-026625400 1283971423.jpg

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NEXT

IT CAN BE SEEN THE HAMPSHIRES MAN HAS BEEN WOUNDED TWICE

STARTING WHERE THE PRIVIOUS PHOTO WAS CUT OFF

HLI NOTE HE IS THE ONLY ONE WEARING A CLOTH TITLE, R FUSILIERS ANOTHER ONE WEARING CROSSED SWORDS AS A COLLAR BADGE,

R SUSSEX REGT, R WELSH FUS, SCHOOL OF MUSKETRY, 10TH KING'S LIVERPOOL

post-27843-038108400 1283971715.jpg

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SEATED

SGT MANCHESTER REGT YOUNG BUT HAS TWO MEDAL RIBBONS, RSM R FUSILIERS, CAPT NOT SURE E YOPRKS OR CHESHIRES, LANCASHIRE FUILIERS, RIFLE BRIGADE.

post-27843-034458200 1283971975.jpg

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SEATING ON THE GROUND FRONT LEFT

SOUTH LANCASHIRE REGT, KING'S OWN LANCASTER, R IRISH FUS, KING'S LIVERPOOL

post-27843-000374200 1283972157.jpg

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LAST BUT NOT LEAST

SEATED ON THE GROUND FRONT RIGHT

LANCASHIRE FUSILIERS, NORTHUMBERLAND FUS T BELOW COLLAR BADGE, GREEN HOWARDS, UNKNOWN REGT, FRENCH LIASON OFF, 11TH PIONEER BN KINGS LIVERPOOL REGT.

IF ANY ONE CAN SHED ANY LIGHT ON THE CROSSED SWORDS COLLARS OR THE SEAFORTH SHOULDER BADGES I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFULL.

REGARDS

JOHN

post-27843-021649500 1283972808.jpg

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Hi

The Rifle Brgade Officer in the centre has three cuff rings although stars and crowns cannot be seen which could be either a Lieutenant Colonel or a Major.

regards

John

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Nice one John and very unusual. Noted the brassards with crossed rifles too.

Might be off the mark here, but the lads wearing the crossed swords may be qualified as both Musketry Instructors and P.T.I's, however regs may decree that only the highest trade appointment is to be worn on the sleeve, so they wouldn't be able to wear the crossed swords below the crossed rifles. As you well know some 'old' soldiers have a flare for wearing things non-regulation, so I wonder if vanity took over and they decided to wear the crossed swords as collars just to say "b*gger regs".

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Super foto and I like the commentary!

The sgt with arm band has crossed everything: swords rifles and flags!

Any chance of a high res. scan by email please: I would like to do a "size" and "shape" examination of all the various crossed swords badges.

By the way, the regulation regarding two "trade" badges was post-war ...... there are lots of 1914 18 examples of two on one arm, including instructor.

A fairly recent post showed an Hussar Sgt with HG and MG upper right arm ..... can't find it at the moment.

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And hopefully:

eckers.jpg

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SEATED RIGHT

RIFLE BRIGADE, OX AND BUCKS LI, DURHAM LI, LOW SGT R WELSH FUS

Pals,

Could that be a DSO ribbon (with the well-known tone distortion caused by orthochromatic film) being worn by the Rifle Brigade officer?

Several KRRC and RB officers were heavily involved in setting up sniping & scouting schools. The Expert :ph34r: and I have been chatting, because this chap seems familiar to both of us. We have some possible names and Andy's going to check his photos.

Cheers,

Mark

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The Rifle Brigade Officer in the centre...
Thanks John, I am completely hopeless when it comes to cap badges (except NZ ;)) and determining ranks from photographs :blush: . Here is a name that comes from 'Notes for Commanding Officers':

Lieut-Colonel J. Micklem, D.S.O., M.C., Rifle Brigade.

He gave a lecture on musketry to the 5th Course at the Senior Officers' School in Aldershot, 1917.

A Lieut-Colonel Luckock (D.S.O.) is also mentioned as someone who gave a lecture. His regiment is not listed but he was General Staff (Training), 4th Army, France.

No other reason for offering the names.

Robert

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Could that be a DSO ribbon (with the well-known tone distortion caused by orthochromatic film) being worn by the Rifle Brigade officer?

Several KRRC and RB officers were heavily involved in setting up sniping & scouting schools. The Expert :ph34r: and I have been chatting, because this chap seems familiar to both of us. We have some possible names and Andy's going to check his photos.

Could be a DSO ribbon. And he's a Major, by the way (3 rings on his cuff, a crown just about visible on his left - our right) sleeve.

But, of course, several other regiments used essentially the same badge as RB.

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First things first: it is a reasonable deduction that this is a Musketry Course, F&F.

Trying to date it, I can see no OR economy jackets. As the photo is extremely unlikey to be 1914 [too much going on for Schools to be set up in F&F], it is probably post-1915, the heyday of the economy. But there are no badges for the wounded that I can see, which [unless all these men were very lucky and were never scratched] suggests pre-July 1916, the grant of the badge.

I suggest the officers and men with dark armband [some with x rifles thereon] are course staff/ instructors. There seem to be no OR below sergeant, so all the non-armbanded OR COULD be Sergeant instructors musketry in their own battalions [snag there is that they should have been left to instruct in UK, along with Bandmasters and blanket stackers].

As for the x swords collar badges, one lives and learns!

Over!

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Hi

it must be after July 16 as the Hampshire Sgt has two wound badges they are visible in post 6 between the heads of the Notts and Derby and HLI Sgts.

Also the HLI Sgt has a Cloth title on his left shoulder.

The dealer I bought it off had another card of just officers in front of the same hut but I had spent everything so couldn't buy it.

John

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