Why the 22nd of November

[Skipman]

" 1914 Star (Mons Star) was awarded for service in France or Flanders (Belgium) between 5 August and 22 November 1914 "

Forgive me if it's obvious, but why the 22nd of November?

Mike

[rksimpson]

Hi Mike

A good question, and one I did not know until I looked up Wikipedia-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Star

and there it is!

We both learn something new

regards

Robert

[Guest]

Thanks Robert. i did kind of know it, but thought there may have been some other reason. Surely it would have been better to award it up to 31st Dec?

Cheers Mike

[MACRAE]

Often wondered why it was those dates now I know well done that man

Dan

[27thBN]

It was that date so one of my chaps who arrived on the 23rd November didnt get a 14 star :angry2: Really though 22nd November was deemed to be the end of 1st Ypres the end of the beginning of the war.

MC

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There are several threads on the 1914 Star and its clasp on the forum. Btw the "1914 Star was awarded for qualifying service in France or Belgium between 5 August and 22 November 1914" it was designed to exclude many people who served in France or Belgium between those dates.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Are there any pals who can confirm whether Antwerp was in Flanders?

[headgardener]

Btw the "1914 Star was awarded for qualifying service in France or Belgium between 5 August and 22 November 1914" it was designed to exclude many people who served in France or Belgium between those dates.

I'd never heard that before. Sorry to slightly hijack Mike's thread, but do you know who exactly might be excluded?

Edit; and Antwerp is/was in Flanders.

[stevem49]

The bar was only awarded to personnel who had actually been under fire during the specified period '5th Aug - 22 Nov' Start of war to end of 1st Ypres. So if you served but were not under fire, then 1914/15 star less bar.

Steve

[headgardener]

....if you served but were not under fire, then 1914/15 star less bar.

No, if you weren't under fire you simply didn't get the bar but you would still get the 14 star.

There has to be another way in which it was designed to exclude people who were serving in theatre during this time. I've never heard of this before, and I'm curious to know why and who.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I'd never heard that before. Sorry to slightly hijack Mike's thread, but do you know who exactly might be excluded?

My comment relates particularly to Naval personnel, this was a medal conceived to honour the 'old' army on land. As I understand it someone in the ASC who landed in France to organise the unloading of ships qualified for the medal, naval and mercantile marine personnel who landed for the same purpose didn't. There was considerable opposition to the 1914 Star being issued to the Royal Naval Division.

Without Royal Navy and Mercantile Marine there would have been no land contingent of the BEF in France or Flanders.

[headgardener]

I am in complete agreement with you. I thought you meant that many people who served on land were excluded. A man (or woman) was only considered eligible for a 14 star if he/she served with a unit who were part of the BEF during that time period. Simply to be present in France or Flanders was not enough, so of course this excluded Navy personnel, except for the RND.

The Salvation Army sent a small group to France with some of the first British troops where they set up the first canteen, but they were not officially part of the BEF so they did not qualify for medals. They only became eligible once they returned to England, formed a motor ambulance convoy, and returned to France in October '14. Their medal entitlement dates from October rather than August.

It seems unfair that men who fought and very often died in other theatres, including so many naval men, didn't qualify.

Edit; you said that ASC men unloading ships would qualify while naval men landing on the same quayside wouldn't; the ASC man would only qualify if his unit was part of the BEF. I suspect that this is a purely theoretical point as almost all British army personnel in in F&F would have been serving with units of the BEF.

[rflory]

I have followed this discussion with some interest and find it necessary to comment on a number of statements that have, in my opinion, been less than accurate:

A.per ardua per mare per terram wrote: "My comment relates particularly to Naval personnel, this was a medal conceived to honour the 'old' army on land."

This is not supported by official correspondence at The National Archives.

In a letter dated 22 Feb 17 Sir F W Ponsonby states: "With regard to some separate distinction for the original Expeditionary Force, I gathered that the Army Council were by no means unanimous in vetoing this proposal.

On 1 Sep 1917 the following 'Minute' was issued by the Military Members of the Army Council:

"1. The Memorandum by the Secretary of State regarding the award of a special decoration for 1914 was considered by the Military Members of the Council on 31st August and 1st September 1917.

2. AG, QMG, MGO and DGMA adhered to their former opinion that there was an objection to the grant of a special decoration for 1914 on the grounds that it was undesirable to make any distinction between the old and new armies. . .

3. It was agreed, however, that if it should be decided to award a special decoration for 1914, the object should be not to mark a distinction between the old regular army and the rest of the military forces now serving, but to commemorate the achievements of the British Expeditionary Force during the critical phase of the war [the underlinings are mine].

4. This being so the award of the decoration should be confined to the troops who served in the decisive theatre, i.e. France and Belgium, during that phase."

B. per ardua per mare per terram also wrote: "As I understand it someone in the ASC who landed in France to organise the unloading of ships qualified for the medal, naval and mercantile marine personnel who landed for the same purpose didn't."

This is not the case: Admiralty Fleet Order dated January 1918 which authorized the award of the 1914 Star indicates that Royal Navy personnel were to be awarded the 1914 Star for service on shore in France and Flanders during the qualifying period. So both the ASC officer organizing the unloading of ships and naval personnel carrying out the same duties in France and Flanders would have received the 1914 Star. I would also indicate that personnel of numerous marine units also qualified for the 1914 Star.

C. headgardener wrote: "A man (or woman) was only considered eligible for a 14 star if he/she served with a unit who were part of the BEF during that time period. Simply to be present in France or Flanders was not enough."

This is not a completely accurate statement because as indicated above Royal Navy personnel received the 1914 Star even though they were not part of the BEF. Special Army Order 350 of November 1917 and Admiralty Fleet Order dated January 1918 which authorized the 1914 Star for their respective services did not indicate that the unit had to be part of the BEF, but rather that the Star was "to be awarded to all those whose served in France and/or Belgium on the strength of a unit between 5 August 1914 and 22 November 1914." In fact,personnel fron the following units, none of which were part of the BEF, were eligible for and received the 1914 Star if they served in France and/or Belgium between the required dates:

Royal Navy Armoured Trains

Marine Brigade at Ostend and Antwerp

Royal Naval Division

Detachments of RNAS including Armoured Cars

Royal Navy and Royal Marine Transport Staff

R. N. Hospital, Dunkirk

British Mission wit the Belgian Army

[extracted from a letter dated 19 Feb 1919 from the Deputy Adjutant General to the Financial Secretary]

Regards, Dick Flory

[horatio2]

... someone in the ASC who landed in France to organise the unloading of ships qualified for the medal, naval and mercantile marine personnel who landed for the same purpose didn't.

The men (mainly naval officers and recalled RMLI Pensioners) of the Naval Transport Staff did qualify. As for those of the MM and naval forces who may have been involved in unloading, the Admiralty Fleet Order of 2/1/1919 makes it clear that "The Star is not granted to any Officer or man employed on special or temporary shore service but not definitely appointed to a shore unit."

[headgardener]

headgardener wrote: "A man (or woman) was only considered eligible for a 14 star if he/she served with a unit who were part of the BEF during that time period. Simply to be present in France or Flanders was not enough."

This is not a completely accurate statement because as indicated above Royal Navy personnel received the 1914 Star even though they were not part of the BEF. Special Army Order 350 of November 1917 and Admiralty Fleet Order dated January 1918 which authorized the 1914 Star for their respective services did not indicate that the unit had to be part of the BEF, but rather that the Star was "to be awarded to all those whose served in France and/or Belgium on the strength of a unit between 5 August 1914 and 22 November 1914." In fact,personnel fron the following units, none of which were part of the BEF, were eligible for and received the 1914 Star if they served in France and/or Belgium between the required dates:

Royal Navy Armoured Trains

Marine Brigade at Ostend and Antwerp

Royal Naval Division

Detachments of RNAS including Armoured Cars

Royal Navy and Royal Marine Transport Staff

R. N. Hospital, Dunkirk

British Mission wit the Belgian Army

[extracted from a letter dated 19 Feb 1919 from the Deputy Adjutant General to the Financial Secretary]

headgardener also wrote: "The Salvation Army sent a small group to France with some of the first British troops where they set up the first canteen, but they were not officially part of the BEF so they did not qualify for medals."

I would suggest that the reason that The Salvation Army personnel were not awarded the 1914 Star had nothing to do with the fact that they were not part of the BEF, because have we have already seen that was not a requirement for the 1914 Star, but rather it was because they were not 'serving on the strength' of either an Army or Royal Navy unit during that period. That said, In a letter to Mr. Richards of the C.W. Branch of the Admiralty dated 14 May 1919, Captain R. E. Field. Staff Captain, AG 10 states: "We have however awarded it [the 1914 Star] in the case of civilian Motor Drivers who were officially appointed to various Staff Officers &c, and also to one or two other cases such as Salvation Army, YMCA Workers &c."

Hi Dick,

But surely the units you mention were part of the BEF?

Also, my point about the SA wasn't that they weren't awarded 14 stars - they did get them. It's just that their eligible service dated from October (when they returned with an ambulance convoy) rather than August (which, interestingly, appears to contradict Capt. Field's letter). You said that it had nothing to do with the fact that they were not part of the BEF, and that it was due to them not serving on the strength of either an army or Navy unit during that period. Isn't that basically the same thing? (being part of the BEF and being on the strength of an army or Navy unit in F&F, I mean).

[rflory]

headqardiner wrote:

But surely the units you mention were part of the BEF?

.

The documents I quoted above make it very clear that the RN and RM units mentioned were not part of the BEF and that is why the wording for qualification for the 1914 Star does not mention the BEF but rather states "to be awarded to all those who served in France and/or Belgium on the strength of a unit between 5 August 1914 and 22 November 1914." Dick Flory

[headgardener]

Hi Dick,

But isn't that basically the same thing? Being part of the BEF and being on the strength of a unit serving in F&F during the qualifying period?

Sorry, I just don't understand the difference.

[rflory]

headqardener wrote:

But isn't that basically the same thing? Being part of the BEF and being on the strength of a unit serving in F&F during the qualifying period?

The BEF was composed of the forces in France and Belgium under the command by Sir John French; the forces listed earlier were not under the command of Sir John French and, therefore, were not part of the BEF. This is why the Admiralty issued a separate order for the 1914 Star and why the word 'all those who served in the BEF' was removed and 'all those who served in France and Belgium' substituted for it. Dick Flory

[headgardener]

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for that. I had done a little research myself (Google) since I posted that question and had come to that conclusion. At that stage of the war there seems to have been a much more limited definition of 'BEF', but by xmas '14 or early '15 or so it seems to have changed so that it encompassed all British forces in F&F, which is what I have always understood the term to mean.