Captured at Le Cateau

[FPBeevers]

I'm new here, and I am trying to research my grandad before I run out of time myself. He was Private 10986 Haigh Swallow, a member of 2nd Battalion KOYLI. When I was a boy, I used to ask him lots of questions about his war experinces, and now he is long-gone, I wish I'd asked him a lot more. He told me how the Battalion embarked at Dublin and landed at Le Havre, and then went by train up to Flanders. Following the German offensive, the Battalion fell back as far as Le Cateau, where they made their famous stand. He was one of the lucky ones who survived, having fallen wounded by shrapnel from a shell burst. Some of the things he told me about what he had seen that day were vivid and harrowing in the extreme. He recounted how he was picked up by the Germans and taken to a field hospital. As it was a very hot day and he was wounded, he was very thirsty and he picked up a mug of water and drank it off, only to be beaten by a German officer who told him that it was for German wounded only. (Too late! He had drunk it!) He escaped shortly afterwards from some kind of holding camp but ran into German cavalry who ran him back tied to their stirrups. After that he was sent to Germany, to a camp in Chemnitz and later to Riga on the Baltic coast. He was finally moved down to what is now Austria by the end of the war, and was repatriated in 1919. We have no surviving records of him as they were all destroyed by my grandma, who could not bear reminders of the past. Are there any records that survive that might have his name on them? I'd be very grateful for any help.

[KevinBattle]

Hello and welcome

I can't add much for you, but it seems your grandfather was a prisoner of war for almost the entire war. Not a very pleasant situation by all accounts.

I'm sure some expert Pals can provide details of the actions around the time of the Battle at Le Cateau when his regiment were in action and possible dates on which he might have been captured.

For what it is worth, these men had similar Service Numbers and could have been in his Company...

001 BALLARD W 8109 2ND BN 30/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

002 BELL J 10960 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

003 ELLISON H 10947 2ND BN 16/09/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

004 FLETCHER TW 10934 2ND BN 26/08/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

006 HARTOP F 10955 2ND BN 31/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

007 MAHER J 10993 2ND BN 31/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

008 REVILL W 10939 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

009 WALTON P 10985 2ND BN 29/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

010 WHITTAKER G 10952 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

I hope it helps in some small way...

[Andy Wade]

His medal index card is available here:

Haigh Swallow

[Doug Johnson]

Have you checked ancestry for his service record?

There are several PoW reports in WO161 for 2/KOYLI dating from 26/27th August 1914 eg here Although your Grandfather is not mentioned they will add to your knowledge of what happened. These are more likely to be wounded PoW so they may not have followed your Grandfather to Chemnitz.

Chemnitz was a good place to be sent in terms of accommodation as it was a newly built German barracks (far better than tents regardless of the treatment).

British prisoners at Chemnitz (if you spot your Grandfather let me know)

Doug

[FPBeevers]

Hello and welcome

I can't add much for you, but it seems your grandfather was a prisoner of war for almost the entire war. Not a very pleasant situation by all accounts.

I'm sure some expert Pals can provide details of the actions around the time of the Battle at Le Cateau when his regiment were in action and possible dates on which he might have been captured.

For what it is worth, these men had similar Service Numbers and could have been in his Company...

001 BALLARD W 8109 2ND BN 30/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

002 BELL J 10960 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

003 ELLISON H 10947 2ND BN 16/09/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

004 FLETCHER TW 10934 2ND BN 26/08/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

006 HARTOP F 10955 2ND BN 31/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

007 MAHER J 10993 2ND BN 31/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

008 REVILL W 10939 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

009 WALTON P 10985 2ND BN 29/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

010 WHITTAKER G 10952 2ND BN 28/10/1914 KING'S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

I hope it helps in some small way...

Thanks very much, Kevin. What is the significance of the dates?

Frank

[FPBeevers]

His medal index card is available here:

Haigh Swallow

Thanks, Andy. I've got one of his medals, the 1914 Star. The other two were lost. The reason for the loss is quite sad - when he got back to England, he found not quite the home for heroes that was promised. He spent much of the 1920s without a job and struggling to survive. They lost their first child to illness because they didn't have the money to pay the doctor and by the time they borrowed it, it was too late. When the other children came along, he made a rattle for them by putting his medals in a tin. As a result, two of the medals disappeared. I wish I'd got them now.

Frank

[FPBeevers]

Have you checked ancestry for his service record?

There are several PoW reports in WO161 for 2/KOYLI dating from 26/27th August 1914 eg here Although your Grandfather is not mentioned they will add to your knowledge of what happened. These are more likely to be wounded PoW so they may not have followed your Grandfather to Chemnitz.

Chemnitz was a good place to be sent in terms of accommodation as it was a newly built German barracks (far better than tents regardless of the treatment).

British prisoners at Chemnitz (if you spot your Grandfather let me know)

Doug

Fantastic photo, Doug! Where did you get it? I can't see my grandad but just to see the place he talked about and to see some of the men he was with and their appearance is worth a lot to me. He had some surprising views about his captors; he always said that the old reservists who guarded them were alright, "men just like us". At Christmas, some of the guards brought the prisoners little presents they had made, such as wooden ornaments or pipes. He didn't think much of their officers, though. They treated both the prisoners and their own men in the same way, and would be quite up to striking them and spitting on them if they felt like it.

I'm now trying to follow up his service record. I have his discharge papers from Pontefract dated May 1919, which state that he was "a sober fellow". They got that one wrong!

Thanks a lot for your help,

Frank

[KevinBattle]

Frank

Thanks very much, Kevin. What is the significance of the dates?

These were extracted from CWGC records. It is their Date of Death

[Doug Johnson]

Frank,

The picture is one of my own collection of photographs etc of German camps. The Germans were not shy about most of their prison camps and allowed photographers to visit to photograph the camps and individuals or groups and in some cases the prisoners were allowed to go down the photographers to have their photograph done in the studio. They even put series of postcards, individually and in packs or books, up for sale of many of the camps and sold souvenier books of the camps.

The books rarely come up for sale but I have a few and this includes one for Chemnitz as shown below.

In 1916 there was a series of postcards issued of the camp which show it in some detail. I will scan some and post them later.

Doug

PS have you looked at Ancestry for his record?

[Doug Johnson]

presumably a store;

Doug

[FPBeevers]

Frank

These were extracted from CWGC records. It is their Date of Death

Thanks Kevin. I understand now. One of them died on the day my grandad was wounded and captured. I suppose he must have known him. How sad it all is.

Frank

[FPBeevers]

Frank,

The picture is one of my own collection of photographs etc of German camps. The Germans were not shy about most of their prison camps and allowed photographers to visit to photograph the camps and individuals or groups and in some cases the prisoners were allowed to go down the photographers to have their photograph done in the studio. They even put series of postcards, individually and in packs or books, up for sale of many of the camps and sold souvenier books of the camps.

The books rarely come up for sale but I have a few and this includes one for Chemnitz as shown below.

In 1916 there was a series of postcards issued of the camp which show it in some detail. I will scan some and post them later.

Doug

PS have you looked at Ancestry for his record?

Doug,

I'm amazed. I never suspected that there was so much information to hand. The photos are exceptional, and I'd very much like to see more if it is not too much trouble to you. I've got my wife onto Ancestry to look for records; she is much better at it than I am!

I have shown my mother these photos. She is now in her 89th year and, like her dad, is a bright as a button. She was very interested to see the place where he was held. I wonder if there are any similar ones of the camp in Riga where he was sent? He told me that he had once escaped from Chemnitz, but by the sound of it you could just have walked out with a pass. I wonder if that was why he got himself sent up to the Baltic?

Frank

[Doug Johnson]

Mrs Pope-Hennesey said;

A large and important manufacturing town (pop 287,000) at the base of the Erzgebirge. The camp is on a hill above the town in newly built artillery barracks – The Frederick August Kaserne. Central steam heating throughout, as in some other Saxon camps. British prisoners brought back from Russian Poland were, for the most type, brought to the camp. Many are employed in neighbouring salt mines. 19th Army Corps.

Another scan;

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Numbers registered at Chemnitz in October 1918 (note that not all would be resident there);

French Officers 1

French Men 7 305

Russian Men 10 941

Belgian Men 12

English Men 2 888

Serbian Men 537

Italian Officers 1

Italian Men 1 413

Total 23 098

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Report of the camp from Miscellaneous No 19 (1915) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8108

Chemnitz

The camp is situated in the hills above the town in newly built barracks. The prisoners are housed in concrete stalls, which have never been used, and are scrupulously clean. The Lazaret and offices, etc, are in the buildings built for the German non-commissioned officer’s casino. The most notable features of the camp are the central steam-heating throughout, and the special building for washing clothes, containing tubs of hot water, a large wringing machine, and a drying room. These features I found repeated in other Saxon camps.

There are 6,000 prisoners at Chemnitz, though a large number are temporarily at work outside. This total is made up of about 1,000 Russian prisoners of war, 4,000 French prisoners of war, about 1,000 French civilians and one English civilian, Henry Lifton of Birmingham, who was resident at Noyon, France at the outbreak of the war. Mr Lifton informed me that he had absolutely no complaints, and that he preferred staying at Chemnitz to being moved to a camp with other English. The commandant informed me that Lifton is employed as an interpreter.

Lithgow Osborne

Berlin, October 18, 1915

Doug

[ARMAGH]

Doug

Very interesting photos, thanks for sharing them,can you post more?

Joe

[Doug Johnson]

Presumably a chapel;

[Doug Johnson]

[ARMAGH]

Thanks Doug

have you any photos of Minden or Sennelager POW camp?

any Black Watch in your photos?

Joe

[Doug Johnson]

have you any photos of Minden or Sennelager POW camp?

any Black Watch in your photos?

Not really, just a soldier (not British and one of Minderheide cemetry which is already on this site), Sennelager, yes but they are mostly already on this site and yes, I think but I will have to check.

Doug

[Guest laviniahallam]

HI Doug I hope this thread is still active. I was fascintaed with your photos of Chemnitz. I am investigating my Grandfather's service in the Great War. He was a regular in the 1st Battalion West Yorkshire Regiment part of the 6th Division that was involved in fighting in France September 1914. He was captured on 20th September 1914 when I believe his company found themselves stranded behind the German lines at Aisne. He told my Aunt that he was in POW camps in Germany, Bavaria, Baltic sea. My Aunt obtained the following information from the International Red Cross a few years ago:-

' Date and place of capture: 20.9.1914 at Aisne.

Place(sic) of internment:

Prisoner of war in German hands, present in the camp of Doberitz (according to a list dated 4.11.1914).

Arrived in the camp of Chemnitz on 30.11.1917 coming from Czersk (according to a list dated 11.2.1918).

These two lists were from the German authorities.

[shereeflesch]

On 5/10/2010 at 19:19, KevinBattle said:

I'm looking for the book Kriegsgefangenenlager Chemnitz 1914-18. It contains postcard-like images of the camp and the POW's that lived there. I've been told it's hard to find, but if any one has any ideas where I might locate one, or has one to sell, please contact me. 

 

Edited 21 October , 2016 by shereeflesch

[bierast]

Thankyou all, this thread was certainly helpful! My article this week for Colonel Joe Robinson's excellent 'WW1 German History' group on Facebook is a detailed examination (with plenty of photos!) of this camp and the Landsturm battalion responsible for guarding it - 1. Landsturm-Infanterie-Bataillon Chemnitz XIX.10. The battalion was officially abolished in spring 1917, but I have good reason to believe that its four companies were still there when the British arrived, simply redesignated and placed directly under the camp administration rather than the superfluous battalion staff.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/german1914/permalink/933263724185338/

Any 'likes' and 'shares' are greatly appreciated

Edited 18 March , 2021 by bierast

[AOK4]

Hello Andy,

 

Unfortunately, there's a some errors in your article, when it concerns the graves of British and French prisoners:

The Commonwealth PoW graves were not repatriated, but concentrated within Germany. The three graves from Ebersdorf were moved to Berlin, see:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/895986/JOHN ROY/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/895575/JAMES ERNEST HINE/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/896255/SANDFORD WOODS/

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/895551/THOMAS A HAWLEY/

also:

 

The French graves were repatriated (there was an agreement between France and Germany, which allowed the French to repatriate their deceased prisoners of war either to their home towns or to a specific PoW cemetery, a similar agreement was made between Belgium and Germany IIRC). Just a few of the names I searched and found:

https://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/client/mdh/sepultures_guerre/detail_fiche.php?ref=2271994&debut=0

https://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/arkotheque/client/mdh/sepultures_guerre/detail_fiche.php?ref=2272013&debut=0

 

This means that, although the names of the French and Commonwealth PoW's are still recorded on the grave markers, the bodies themselves were moved.

 

I agree with your guess that the battalion was officially disbanded in 1917, but its companies remained as "Bewachungskompagnien" or something similar. It's something I have seen for Landsturm companies guarding Zivilarbeiter-Bataillone, Kriegsgefangenen-Arbeiter-Bataillone and "free civilian labourers" as well. I strongly recommend checking the following files in  Dresden: 11352 Stellvertretendes Generalkommando des XIX. Armeekorps - Abteilung Ic - Kriegsgefangenenangelegenheiten: https://www.archiv.sachsen.de/archiv/bestand.jsp?oid=02.03.08.05&bestandid=11352&syg_id=330872

 

Cheers,

Jan

[bierast]

Thankyou Jan - I have now made the necessary corrections (and credited you!)

Edited 18 March , 2021 by bierast