Commission Certificates

[PhilB]

Who was authorized to sign commission documents, in the bottom right corner, for the Army, Navy & RAF of WW1 servicemen who may have been commissioned as far back as Victorian times? Was it anyone of a certain rank or the holders of certain positions?

[Old Tom]

I cannot be certain about Victorian times but believe that officers only receive one commision and are thereafter promoted. The signature is that of the sovereign and indeed may have been actually signed by him or her. In more modern times I think the signature is some sort of printing process.

Old Tom

[NigelS]

Phil - hope you don't mind. could I tack on to this thread, the same question but for NCO Warrants.

NigelS

[PhilB]

Nigel - certainly!

Old Tom - I`m specifically referring to the signature/s in the bottom right corner, not the sovereign`s signature in top left.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Phil

I assume you are referring to Regular or New Army officers, and these commissions would be signed by, or on behalf of, a Secretary of State (usually, of course, the S of S for War).

As far as I know, TF commissions were signed by the Lord-Lieutenant of the relevant county.

Indian officers' commissions were signed by, or on behalf of, the Viceroy.

The RAF rules were the same as for the Army. For the Royal Navy, I believe two Lords Commissioners signed.

Nigel - warrants had to be applied for to the War Office, so I assume that these were also signed by or on behalf of the S of S for War.

Ron

[PhilB]

Thanks, Ron. The "by or on behalf of" unfortunately raises the question - who could sign on his behalf?

[NigelS]

Thanks Ron, reading through the 'Wiki' entry on Lord Lieutenants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Lieutenants), from a historical point of view that certainly makes sense for the TF once established in 1907 and Militia before that.

Unfortunately, on my Grandfather's warrant (TF) neither signature can be easily read so as to allow any attempt at tracking down the position of who actually might have signed it!

NigelS

[Old Tom]

Phil

I should have dragged mine out before expressing opinion. There are indeed two signatures bottom right, that was in 1952 when we still had a War Office. All three i.e. HM's and the other two seem to be printed in purple ink. The two seem to be B. Procard (not clear) and G.w Turner. I think Turner was PUS War Office at the time. The other defeats me. It was not the Sec of State for War, although it is the one above Turner, as that was Anthony Head in 1952

Old Tom

[punjab612]

Just to add another one, my GF as WO1 in 1915

Bottom one is same as on previous posting, other one Sclater? Initials afer signature AGS?

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

Hello all

I think Nigel's example may have answered most of the relevant questions!

The two signatures are those of Sir Nevil Macready (C F N Macready) who was Adjutant-General to the Forces at the War Office from February 1916 to September 1918n, and Sir Reginald Brade (R H Brade) who was the Secretary of the War Office and Permanent Under-Secretary of State for War throughout the Great War.

Mecready was Director of Personal Services at the War Office in Auguat 1914 when he went as Adjutant-General to the BEF, returning to the War Office in Feb 1916. He later became Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police - as did Sir Julian Byng and Sir Hugh Trenchard, incidentally.

Old Tom - if you can find a copy of Whitaker's Almanac for 1952 somewhere, it usually gives the names of the whole of the Board of Admiralty, Army Council and Air Council of the day, so you may be able to identify "B Procard" from that. The Army List for 1952 should have similar information.

punjab - yes, Sir Henry Sclater was AG at the WO from before the outbreak of war until Feb 1916. He was primarily responsible for the administrative arrangements for raising the New Armies, a job for which he is generally given little credit.

Ron

[healdav]

Commissions used to be signed personally by the Monarch. However, by Victoria's time there were an awful lot to be signed and the King/Queen had a lot to do. It was not unknown for someone to receive it after their retirement or even death.

So, inthe late 1850s this was given up and they were signed by the Secretary of State with a stamp and one for the Queen was added as well. The same thing happens now.

[NigelS]

That's Brilliant Ron, I would never have deciphered that as McCready, but it certainly looks like it! One slight problem though: my grandfather's warrant ( see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...st&p=930337 )was signed on the 14th November 1915 when McCready was, from what you've said, not in position - although, as you will note from that post there is doubt -at least in my mind - that the 1915 appointment date given is incorrect.

NigelS

[punjab612]

Thanks Ron another mystery solved

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

Nigel

The date on the warrant governed the date from which the promotion, with its associated increases in pay etc, took effect. It may not actually have been signed by Macready until Feb 1916 or even later.

Compare this with officers' commissions published in the London Gazette, which were often ante-dated.

Ron

[NigelS]

The appointment date with the LRB given on my grandfather's warrant of 29th January 1915 has alway been a bit of a mystery, as, from the medal rolls, he didn't actually join the LRB until July '16 after the 2/7th Middx Bn that he'd been serving with had moved from Egypt to France and been disbanded (said to be due to an outbreak of typhus on arrival in France) and replaced (as 2/7th ) by its 3rd Bn ); In the event he, together with a good many other men from original 2/7th Middx, were used to the replenish the losses that 1st Bn LRB had suffered during the diversionary attack at Gommecourt in preference to the men of its own 3rd Bn, some of whom (at least according to the 'History of the LRB 1859-1919' ) where already in France. My grandfather's transfer to the LRB (although probably not to the 1st Bn) may well have been planned well in advance, hence the January 1915 appointment date (or even 1916 if the warrant, as I suspect, is in error); The transfer of the other ex Middx men seem less likely and may have just been a coincidence (as the 2/7 Middx had already had 18 months experience fighting in Egypt and were readily available, using them would probably have made far more sense than using the in-experienced men from the LRB's own 3rd Bn even if they were already in France). It would have been nice if my grandfather had been getting a CSM's pay in January 1915 as my father and his twin brother had been born in November '14 and the extra money would doubtless have been useful to my grandmother. If only his service record were still in existence...

NigelS

[PhilB]

Whose signature is at bottom right of today`s commissions - Des Brown?

[Ron Clifton]

The two seem to be B. Procard (not clear) and G.w Turner. I think Turner was PUS War Office at the time. The other defeats me. It was not the Sec of State for War, although it is the one above Turner, as that was Anthony Head in 1952

Tom

G w (Sir George) Turner was certainly PUS at the War Office in 1949, so quite probably still in this post in 1952.

Could your "B Procard", presumably handwritten, actually be O L Roberts? General Sir Ouvry L Roberts was a member of the Army Council in 1953, quite possibly AG (he was definitely not CIGS), according to my Coronation programme!

Ron

[Old Tom]

Ron

Many thanks, you really are a mine of information. I thought I remembered Turner as a signature/name on ACIs. The other signature could well be Roberts. I suppose the AG's mark, together with that of the PUS would be very authoritive. The only parts of these impressive documents or parchments are hand written are the name of the recipient, his rank and rigiment of corps; all in fine copperplate.

Old Tom