jainvince Posted 18 February , 2010 Share Posted 18 February , 2010 Another of our soldiers, Rifleman 51456 C. Fielden, 1st/5th Batt The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) died Friday 30 November 1917 (SDGW indicates KIA). His regiment was part of the 55th West Lancashire Division which was defending the South East side of the salient during the German Counter Attack. We know that he was buried in grave number I. A. II Villers-Faucon Communal Cemetery Extension, Somme, France, which is close to the action on the 30th November 1917 but does any Kings expert have a better knowledge of where the 1/5 Kings were on that day. This would enable me to get nearer to the spot as in April I am visiting the area around Lempire etc where the Gloucester's fought. I have looked and read the Cambrai details on the LLT site book my book collection doesn't cover this section. Any assistance appreciated. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 18 February , 2010 Share Posted 18 February , 2010 Bernard, My fairly rapid reckoning from J.O. Coop's The Story of the 55th (West Lancashire) Division using the map therein and Google Earth is that the battalion centre for 1/5 KLR on St Andrew's Day 1917 is at about 49°59'50.59"N 3°10'56.26"E. This seems to be about 1 km (perhaps a bit more) NE of Lempire roughly where the road from Lempire to Vendhuile passes under the autouroute. The CWGC cemetery is immediately adjacent. Annoyingly, Coop does not provide a scale and I have just produced this figure comparatively by eye. There will be more detail possibly in Everard Wyrall's History of the King's Liverpool Regiment but I am ploughing through 250 e-mails that have arrived while I have been detached from my normal e-mail client and relying on webmail If you PM me to provide an e-mail address, I will try to scan this map for you although I have not yet risked the adventure of attaching the new scanner to the new PC. In the area of Epèhy to the north, many of the tracks can be related to those on the modern 1:25000 Serie Bleue maps although the appearance of the autoroute so close obviously complicates matters in this respect. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jainvince Posted 18 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2010 Ian Many thanks, have PM'd you. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docfortune Posted 20 February , 2010 Share Posted 20 February , 2010 Hi, This is an extract from the 1/4th Loyal North Lancashire war diary 30th Nov 1917, which in itself is an extract from the History of the 55th Division. It has reference to 1/5th KLR. The Division was at this time holding a front of 13,000 yards, supported only by two Brigades of Field artillery! This wide frontage could not of course be continuously held ; it consisted of Platoon posts, connected by travel trenches, and distributed in depth so far as circumstances allowed. But with such a wide front an effective distribution in depth was impossible with the troops available. On the morning of the attack, the portion of the line extending from BANTEAUX RAVINE to WOOD ROAD was held by the 1/5th South Lancashires. South of them in the HONNECOURT sector were the 1/5th North Lancashire Regiment, and in the OSSUS sector the 1/10th King's Liverpool Regiment. The 1/5th King's Own were in support. The 165th Infantry Brigade on the right was disposed as follows:— 1/6th King's Liverpool Regiment from OSSUS WOOD to HEYTHROP POST ; 1/5th King's Liverpool Regiment from GRAFTON POST to EGO POST; and 1/7th King's Liverpool Regiment southwards from this point to CAT POST and NEW POST. The 1/9th King's Liverpool Regiment were in support. The 164th Infantry Brigade were in Divisional reserve. Ive overlayed the section of the map fairly accuratly but no scale. There is a line in the fields on google maps that follow the trench line between grafton and ego posts pretty well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 20 February , 2010 Share Posted 20 February , 2010 Andrew (and Bernard), Welcome to the Forum, Andrew. I had forgotten the maps in the 1/4 LNLR account and I really like your overlay map using Google. I presume that you mean the excellent The War History of the 1/4 LNLR rather than the actual war diary, although much of the text is extracted from the war diary. My understanding is that this map actually shows some of the dispositions of 1/4 LNLR in support of an attack on the Gillemont defences by other battalions on 20 November 1917; 14 LNLR were required to hold the existing line. The area shown certainly corresponds to the information on the 1/5 KLR position on 30 November given in the text and map in Coop's Story of the 55th Division. I presume that the squares are the 1000 yard squares of the trench map. I would have thought it a fair assumption that the blobs will correspond to the company positions of 1/5 KLR on 30 November. The 1/5 KLR Op Order for 22 November has the battalion occupying the following positions on the night of 22/23 November: A Company at Grafton Post, C Company at Fleeceall Post, D Company at Ego Post and B Company at Sart Lane with B Company relieving D Company on the evening of 26 November. The 1/5 KLR diary for 30 November records "The enemy attacked positions on our immediate left. He was beaten off at Grafton and Fleeceall Posts. S[ick] 1, K[illed in Action]/A 8 W[ounded] 15." Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docfortune Posted 21 February , 2010 Share Posted 21 February , 2010 Thanks for the welcome, Im new to this WW1 history tracing. Yes i did mean the War History of 1/4 LNLR, and yes the map does correspond to the Gillemont farm sector, although the actual farm is drawn off the grid. The other map in the chapter actually dated 30th Nov is for the sector further north which i think is outside the KLR area. I have a keen interest in this part of the year as my great uncle was wounded and captured on the 18th Nov 1917 at Gillemont Farm just before Cambrai started. Anyway without highjacking the thread I hope the information helps abit, feel free to have another go at overlaying as i dont know the scales and im not a KLR expert. Also the 1/4 LNLR War History is free to download http://www.archive.org/details/warhistoryof1st400grea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 21 February , 2010 Share Posted 21 February , 2010 Andrew, I think your scaling is pretty well spot on; usually (when I have played about with scaled transparencies) you can get a bit of a fit to surviving tracks and raods which you seem to have managed although I think the autoroute has rattled the WW1 track plan somewhat. I would not have a clue how to overlay electronically (presumably some Photoshop gizmo?) but looking at what you have managed, I think I should learn! I think the scale is in your grid which will be the trench map grid of 1000 yard squares (ie the sides as opposed to 1000 square yards area). Was your great uncle with 1/4 LNLR? I presume you have a copy of Coop; if not PM me with an e-mail address and I will scan the relevant bits. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jainvince Posted 21 February , 2010 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2010 Guys Thanks very much for your information. Now I can pinpoint where another of our soldiers fought and fell and can record him for posterity. We will visit the area in April and pay our respects. Thanks again Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jainvince Posted 19 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2010 Enclosed are a couple of photos. The first shows a panorama from le Tombois Farm towards Grafton Post towards the left of the picture and near to hilltop. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jainvince Posted 19 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2010 And a view towards where Eco post was but it may have been slightly off the picture to the left Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 19 May , 2010 Share Posted 19 May , 2010 Bernard, Thanks for these. I have only ever seen this area in November mist seemingly thicker than that of 30 November 1917 Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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