wainfleet Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 I thought Pals might find it interesting to see this early example of the soft cap. I've only seen 3 1916 dated examples in 30 years of collecting, and the other two had the flannel sweatband. The lining of this one appears to be based directly on the stiff cap, ie an oilcloth sweatband lifting to reveal a coarse fibrous material (I don't know what this is - processed straw?). So I'm guessing it is the first version of the soft cap. Condition is a bit squashed and motheaten but still acceptable. The badge is supposedly original to it. Sorry about the poor quality of the photos. W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 19 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2010 The maker is Pipe & McGill Ltd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 Wainfleet, Thanks for posting...you are right it is always interesting to see items from other collections especially if used as a data base / good examples for reference. Both my soft caps are the later version with the cloth and oil skin. One is an RFA cap and the soldier has actually sown the badge in to stop its removal so every liklihood that is the original...who knows? Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 Very nice! I'm interested in the way that cap badges are fitted to these caps. In the two serge versions (with oilcloth liners) I've had, one allowed the slider to fit into the headband, without disrupting the interior of the cap; the other has had a hole cut for the slider, and no gap for it in the headband. Which is typical? Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 It's not a problem; I was wondering whether the approved method was the 'neat' solution, or not. Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 19 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2010 TM, nice cap. It seems to have suffered the same way as mine, ie. without stiffened sides to support it, the sweatband being prone to movement has creased and cracked badly whilst the crown is more or less ok. They must have spotted the design fault early on. The flannel sweatband (as I'm sure you know) seems to have been used in 1916 and 1917, and the stitched-in oilcloth sweatband in 1917 and 1918. I have seen the gaberdine (or "denim") version with all-oilcloth and all-cotton liners, both dated 1918, but never a serge one with the cotton liner, at least not one I believed. I'm not saying they weren't made, only that I haven't seen one. It would be interesting to know if anybody has a genuine one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Doyle Posted 19 January , 2010 Share Posted 19 January , 2010 Most likely it was a case of Cap 1, Badge 1, get on with it! TM I guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 24 January , 2010 Share Posted 24 January , 2010 W. Tocemma, The firat pattern cap Pattern 8706/1916 --11-Mar-16----Cap, soft, Service Dress, was made of serge with an "american cloth crown and flannel headband. Fitrst pattern Introduction. There was another pattern---9066/1916---Jun (?) 1916 Cap, soft, Service Dress---with no Information on this Pattern found. Could be American Cloth Headband? Pattern 9738/1917---28-Nov-17---Cap, soft, Service Dress-----Modification of Pattern, replaced the headband flannel with “American Cloth" American Cloth being the Oilcloth. Here are the rest of the patterns 9783/1917 19-Dec-17 Cap, soft, Service Dress Gabardine alternate pattern All "Amercian Cloth Liner Headband" 9847/1918 19-Mar-18 Cap, soft, Service Dress "Gabardine" Modification of Pattern 9783; cotton lining in lieu of “American Cloth and flannel". This is the all Cotton lining 3084/1918 22-Oct-18 Cap, soft, Service Dress "Committee Approved"; alternative to pattern 9738 No detail beyond Committee approved?? 3085/1918 29-Oct-18 Cap, soft, Service Dress "Committee Approved"; alternative to pattern 9847 No detail beyond Committee approved?? All of the patterns after 9738 were alternates and manufactured in parallel. The others show the distinction of being replaced. What I find interesting is the fact that thesxe two caps have an "O" code. All other wartime caps, Tams, Balmorals that I have or have seen have had a "P" code. The only articles of clothing I've seen with an "O" were waterproof clothing--Waders, Cyclist's cape, Waterproof coat etc. Take care, Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 24 January , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 January , 2010 Joe Thanks for your helpful (as ever) posting. It seems strange that the very first pattern of soft cap should have the flannel sweatband, as the 2 examples shown here are of an inferior design with a loose oilcloth sweatband that would clearly wear out much quicker. For this reason, and because it’s a direct copy of the stiff cap liner, I’d thought it would turn out to be the very first pattern. I’ve just looked at my 1917 dated soft cap w. flannel band. The band is secured at both top and bottom, unlike the oilcloth on my 1916 cap which is loose, by which I mean it is secured at the bottom only. I am now wondering whether pattern 8706/1916 might refer to a loose flannel sweatband, and pattern 9066/1916 – to a flannel sweatband secured at both top and bottom. In which case, might the loose oilcloth sweatband versions shown here be variants of 8706/1916? This line of development would make sense to me, though I have to say I have never seen a loose flannel sweatband. Reading this back it seems very convoluted and I hope it is not too difficult to make sense of. All trivial stuff in a way, but very useful when it comes to pinning down dates of manufacture and use as the kit changed. TM - interesting photo. The latest soft cap I've ever seen was a gabardine example dated 1922. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 24 January , 2010 Share Posted 24 January , 2010 W. Thanks. The bad thing about the RACD pattern books is that the desriptions are haphazard (some very detailed, some not and all handwritten) and any of your questions might be correct. None of the desriptions state the headband was attached at the top. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 24 January , 2010 Share Posted 24 January , 2010 I was looking at a photo of WW11 POWs and clearly seen is a British soldier wearing what appears to be a "trench cap" with stitiched peak. I always wondered about it but TM may have solved it for me. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 24 January , 2010 Share Posted 24 January , 2010 TE, I will have to look through the RACD Pattern books--I have up to 1929. I've only gone into a detailed post war look-up on certain items like Ankle boots and shirts. The only notation I have at hand is the "Gabardine" ones were declared obsolete and to be withdrawn in 1921. I'll go through them next weekend. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 29 January , 2010 Share Posted 29 January , 2010 I've hap this cap about 20 yrs but would not be surprised if it is a copy. The vent gromets are small and it is perhaps missing part of the lining if it is OK. Any opinions /info. welcome. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alby Posted 29 January , 2010 Share Posted 29 January , 2010 That's a nice looking hat Paul, that's the type I'd like to buy one day. I don't know enough about them to know if its a copy though. Alby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 29 January , 2010 Share Posted 29 January , 2010 I would not buy it as a genuine WW1 cap. The liner and peak are wrong and the chin strap doesnt look right either...too thick. My opinion on comparison to those I know to be period. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krithia Posted 30 January , 2010 Share Posted 30 January , 2010 I would not buy it as a genuine WW1 cap Exactly my sentiment ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 28 June , 2013 Share Posted 28 June , 2013 Hi i've got a new addition today. An early pattern soft cap with MG badge. WD marking is slightly visible - P under WD - 3? over WD. Remains of the manufacturer are also visible. The only word which i can read is London. Who could be the manufacturer ? Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
133.R Posted 3 July , 2013 Share Posted 3 July , 2013 Hi Tocemma thanks for your opinion.I've changed the badge against a correct pattern badge.There are two holes in the fabric with a distance from 2 cm. Regards Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 5 July , 2013 Share Posted 5 July , 2013 Here is the inside of my 1916 dated example which appears to have been made in the Old Kent Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eparges Posted 5 July , 2013 Share Posted 5 July , 2013 Hi, here's one of my caps, with flannel band, same like shirts? Myers made, and alos with O code Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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