P1907 Bayonet Markings

[shippingsteel]

I have only just joined up for this forum and would like to tap into the wonderful abundance of knowledge that you guys have accumulated over the years. Hopefully the topics that i raise may also be of interest to other enthusiasts out there as well.

Recently I have started to put together a collection of WW1 era bayonets (mainly the P1907), sticking to the ones that were more than likely "doing the business" as opposed to mint re-issues out of storage. This means paying extra attention to markings, dates and stampings, etc. to try to establish their level of involvement.

For sake of some examples I will briefly describe my latest pick-ups.

P1907 Wilkinson - marked 10 '15, no clearance hole, no re-issues

P1907 Chapman - marked 9 '17, Aust issue D, matching Lithgow scabbard, no re-issues

P1907 Remington - marked 8 '15, hole drilled, re-issue mark '18 together with a capital R

The latter marking provides the basis of my question - what does the R signify.?

I have seen it occur with the '18 re-issue stamp more than once so does it mean 'full refurbishment' at the end of the war prior to entering storage.?

Appreciate your assistance.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Welcome S/S,

Just a quick note to suggest not to loose heart - our resident bayonet expert Seph (aka Bootnecks) will no doubt respond when he sees this thread. I have a small selection of 1907s and some reference materials so I'll go and have a look for any references to an "R"

off the top of my head I cannot think of one, nor do I recall seeing it - but this may have more to do with my [lack of] powers of recall than anything else. Any chance of a pic? (must be under 100kb to post or you can link out to an image hosted on site like photobucket)

Chris

[Arnhem44]

By any chance does the R stand for Retest,these's an R abreviation in Howard Williamson's book "A Dictionary Of Great war Abbreviations" under Bayonet Markings

Brendan

[4thGordons]

By any chance does the R stand for Retest,these's an R abreviation in Howard Williamson's book "A Dictionary Of Great war Abbreviations" under Bayonet Markings

Brendan

That would seem reasonable - I assume the "test" referred to would be the bend test (signified by the X on new blades)

THIS SITE notes the use of R in conjunction with month/year dates to signify refinishing as an Australian mark (scroll down to see Aus. marks - its towards the end)

This same identification (month/Year/R) as an Australian refinish stamp is also found in Skennerton and Richardson (Brit & Commw. Bayonets).

Chris

"Calling Seph! Calling Seph!"

[shippingsteel]

That would seem reasonable - I assume the "test" referred to would be the bend test (signified by the X on new blades)

THIS SITE notes the use of R in conjunction with month/year dates to signify refinishing as an Australian mark (scroll down to see Aus. marks - its towards the end)

This same identification (month/Year/R) as an Australian refinish stamp is also found in Skennerton and Richardson (Brit & Commw. Bayonets).

Chris

"Calling Seph! Calling Seph!"

Thanks for getting back to me 4thGordons, I was beginning to think this topic may have been a little too obscure ...

I am familiar with the website you mentioned and that part about the R is the only reference that I can find anywhere in my searches to date.

On the left hand side of the ricasso where the '18 is located there is an Enfield inspection marking which would indicate Brit work possibly at the time of drilling.

The R is located on its own on the right hand side of the ricasso and is isolated from any other markings. I will try to attach a pic if I can get it to work.!

The only other clue apparent is the serious armoury work done to clean up the side of the pommel and remove the offending dings which seem to be an obligatory part of field usage.

Apart from that all the stampings appear to have occured around the same time with nothing that really stands out as being of a later period.

Thanks for your interest,

S>S

[4thGordons]

Well what about that....

I decided I would go through mine and have a look - and on a rather battered 1912 dated Wilkinson - (reissued '16 or '18 - you can see the stamp on the pic - without hooked quillon and with clearance hole added )

look what I found.

Now I would really like to know. "Retested" or "Refinished" or....?

Chris

[Arnhem44]

Not sure how many people have Howard Williamson's book on Great War Abbreviation's but would definitely be worth picking up for anyone who hasn't.According to the book the only "R" refered to are five seperate R abbreviations,the first is under Unit Markings and the R stands for "Regiment",the next four R's are under Bayonet and Rifle Markings,the first one on this list denotes the "Remington Company",next one is "Retest usually followed by date and in conjuction with C-Conversion mark",the third one on this list is "Rusty barrel",the last one is slightly different because it has a period mark after the R which is an "R.",this one means "On barrel denotes replacement".The book also gives 82 different illustrated markings found on British rifles and bayonets(Germany is also covered)but the "R" mark is not amongst these in the illustrated section.Hope these are of some use.

Brendan

[4thGordons]

Thanks for that Brendan I do not have the text to which you refer but will be looking into it. Ian Skennerton has an excellent book (I can't find mine currently!) called the "Broad Arrow" which details a huge number of British and Commonwealth markings (subsets of these are included in his tome on the Enfield and in various other publications...I checked the Rifle and bayonet text but am still looking for my copy of the Broad arrow.

Just a coment on those you cite fom Williamson's book

The R used to denote a rusty barrel is usually a Script (ie copperplate stye) R in my experience (curlier than even this example - like the script B used by BSA inspectors

also Remington is often also abbreviated as RE (for example on p1907 scabbards) although it is true that Remington produced components for the P14, M1917 and M1903 are stamped with a single R

From the description you provide "Retest" seems to be the best candidate but it does not seem to conform to the date/C formula.

Williamson's book sounds worth a look - thanks

Chris

[shippingsteel]

I guess from what has been discussed to date is that the most obvious answer would be the R stands for "Retest", but I'm still not totally convinced.

The thing that grabs me is that from all the examples I have seen, the R is always marked in conjunction with the '18 re-issue mark. Very strange.

I'd like to hear of other examples out there and see if they are all marked the same way.

My latest theory is based around the concept of "battlefield recycling" which has been discussed in this forum in previous threads.

It would seem that during 1918 when the front was starting to move considerably there would have been more opportunity for retrieving war materiel from the old battlefields.

This materiel would then be taken to a central armoury located somewhere in France I presume to see what could be refurbished and pressed back into immediate use.

Perhaps the R would indicate the particular bayonet has had an "in-theatre" repair or refurbishment before a quick re-issue back into service.

It's just my current guess, I'd really love to hear from someone who actually knows that could prove me wrong.

If this theory can be validated, the presence of the R would be a great way to prove that an actual bayonet has seen hard service on the battlefield.

And getting back to my initial post, this is what I was setting out to achieve with my collection in the first place.

Thanks to all who have replied,

S>S

[findabetterole]

Hello Gents, sorry for the delay.

There does seem to be a bit of a delema about this 'R' stamping, and in reference to British bayonets, I personally have never encountered a physical example of it before reading this post. I've read and re-read my files and appropriate books, and can only find the reference to it in connection to British items as already mentioned for Australia.

As far as I am aware, if a British bayonet failed the bend test, a replacement would be selected from the same batch.. then it would be tested. If that failed, the whole batch was rejected for meltdown.

The only two explanations that I can sensibly offer for the item which Chris illustrates, is that...

1) This has been stamped with an 'R' as a reject, but has somehow found itself back into the mainstream production process! If that is the case, then the question must be asked... "Why was this item not picked up upon inspection?" The answer to that is generally quite easy, as the various inspectors could not possibley handle every item that comes off the production line, but only inspect a certain percentage of a certain batch going through the process at certain stages.

2) The item has been refurbished under Australian criteria. If this is the case, where is the refurbishment date?

If it were Belgian military, then the 'R' on the pommel would make sence, as this is standard for that nationalities military.

I'll do some more indepth delving and ask around my collector friends to see what they may know!

Seph

[shippingsteel]

I am thinking that the second explanation is starting to get closer to the money. "Refurbishment under Australian criteria".

Perhaps the more detailed month/year/R format was introduced at a latter date under less strained circumstances.

The link with the '18 reissue mark still puzzles me though. Was it refurbished at the end of the war when the troops returned home.?

Exactly how much gear would have been shipped home with the troops, or was much of it just dumped in France or England.?

From my limited knowledge of the subject I believe the Australian forces in France were fighting as a fully independent Corps by 1918.

Could they possibly have had their own Corps Armoury operating somewhere in the field in order to keep their own troops resupplied.?

As Mulder and Scully would have us believe, the answer IS OUT THERE ...still.!!!

Cheers, S>S

[calibre792x57.y]

I don't think that a 'R' marking is peculiarly Great War, nor just Australian. I have a Pattern 1860 yataghan converted for the Martini- Henry rifle with this mark on the heel of the blade. The bayonet is in excellent condition despite having many Crowned BR stamps and re-dating as late as 1891. I have seen a SMLE with a similar marking and have always understood it to stand for 'Repair', which can be either a minor modification or a full refurb. I'm always willing to be educated tho'!

[findabetterole]

I'm always willing to be educated tho'!

We are all on an upward learning curve 'SW'.. no matter our level of knowledge. There may be many individuals out there who have come across this marking many times, and even others like yourself who have examples in their own collections. It's certainly got me stumped for the moment, and I'm itching to get down to root of the issue!

Seph

[shippingsteel]

I am thinking that the second explanation is starting to get closer to the money. "Refurbishment under Australian criteria".

Perhaps the more detailed month/year/R format was introduced at a latter date under less strained circumstances.

The link with the '18 reissue mark still puzzles me though. From my limited knowledge of the subject I believe the Australian forces in France were fighting as a fully independent Corps by 1918.

Could they possibly have had their own Corps Armoury operating somewhere in the field in order to keep their own troops resupplied.?

I have just stumbled across THIS WEBSITE (click on Ordnance section 2/3 way down index) which could shed a little light on the appearance of the R marking on the bayonets that had been re-issued and stamped '18.

It appears that the Australians "took over" their existing British mobile workshops in 1918 and may have started to add their "own touches" to the refurbishment work.??

Has anyone else got anything new since last time this topic was raised.?

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

SS, did this thread go anywhere? It's just that I saw a rather rusted and scabbardless Sanderson a while back, with an '15 marking, no cleaning hole though, and I recall that it had something marked to one side of the arrow... Don't quote me on this as I laughed when I heard the price (= GBP 75) and walked away.