Skipman Posted 16 December , 2009 Share Posted 16 December , 2009 I'm looking for information regarding the movements/history etc of the 428th, and 161st Siege Batteries. Does anyone know of any books/websites on these units.Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Hello Mike, I assume you have someone who went out with 428 and served also with 261. Well the link is that 428 Sge Bty, (formed in April 1917 at Prees Heath) personnel only, went out to the Western Front 29-8-1917. Of its two sections, one went to 121 Sge Bty and the other to 161 Sge Bty on 5-9-1917. No diaries survive for any of these batteries whose personnel were used to bring other batteries upto 6 gun establishments. Unfortunately no official diary survives for 161 Sge Bty either for this period, so your only recourse is therefore the HAG diary they were part of from June 1917 until 1919, which was 51 Brigade for this 9.2 Howitzer battery. This can be found at NA ref WO95/473 I am not aware of any other surviving books, diaries for these batteries at Kew, Liddle, Birmingham, Brit Mus, Bodleian, unless Woolwich has something hidden away. Rgds Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Thanks very much Paul. It seems information is pretty sparse then. Just trying to get some background information. The man am researching was KIA on the 29th October 1917. Croonaert Chapel Cemetery. I wondered if the location might be significant. Appreciate your very helpful answer. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Mike, Are we talking about 152415 McKENZIE James M ? because I wondered if any relation to 152414 MacKENZIE Angus same path and batteries? Rgds Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Paul, The very man. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=105378 Do you have any information on him. I don't have much, birth cert etc. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Mike. all I know is that 152414 is on Anc Burnt, & SDGW has 152415 James Murray McKENZIE as born Logierait, Perth; enlisted Aberfeldy KiA. Rgds Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Thanks Paul, I had better have a look. It must be different man, unless they have wrong number. Will have a look, and get back to you. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 December , 2009 Share Posted 17 December , 2009 Hi Paul, I'm with you now, was thinking Angus, as Angus Perthshire. No relation, ( I don't think ) but as you say similar path, so very useful. Thanks very much for bringing that to my attention. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 November , 2010 Share Posted 25 November , 2010 Am still interested in any Siege Battery information. Particularly 428 and 161 Siege Batteries. On 5th of September 1917 Gunner 152415 James Murray McKenzie was posted from 428th Battery, to 161st Battery. The diary for these units does not exist, but I do have the 51st HAG diary for the month he was killed. September 1917.It tells us that a battery consisted of 4x9.2" Howitzers. It's very useful but doesn't give much idea of what life was like for the average gunner of a Siege battery. What duties might Gunner McKenzie have carried out on a day to day basis? I found this online, which may be useful ARTILLERY SURVEY IN WORLD WAR ONE Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essdee Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike During Oct'17 there were 9 OR's killed within 8 Corps HA. A line from the 29th reads, " I29a was shelled with 300 rnds 15cm How. resulting in 1 OR being killed and 6 OR wounded. " I29a would place this battery along the KNOLL ROAD 500 - 1000 yds north of HILL 60. 161 Gunners manned the guns of 93 Siege on the 21st Sept'17 who went out to rest. On the 22nd Sept'17 a change in Corps front resulted in 8 Corps taking over batterys in situ that were previously held by 9 Corps. The " in situ " position was O1c 7.2 some 3-4,000yds SW of I29a. The above line assumes that 161 Siege moved to a more forward position during the following month to end up at I29a on 29 Oct'17. I've looked through Sept. and Oct. but can't find any mention of 161 moving to I29a. If he was KIA on the 29th then you begin to think they must have based on the above. However, if he is DOW from a previous engagement the battery could have been at O1c. all the time. I can't be certain either way. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, I do not wish to make your research more difficult than it already is, but I believe that it would be possible for Gnr. McKenzie to have been killed with another battery even if it states 161 SB on the CWGC. Without seeing his records it would be difficult to prove, but if there seems to be a difference between "posted" and "attached" and this was not uncommon. One only needs to see the records for this Gnr., http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=23545 . According to his records he was attached to 161 SB when he was killed. Not easy, is it? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Thanks very much Stuart, and Kevin. No it is not easy. I have a lot of work to do on this man yet, and a lot to learn about Artillery. I still have quite a few newspapers to look up, there may be clues there. He was KIA on the 29th October buried Croonaert Chapel Cemetery. I will keep working on it, and thanks again for your help. Much appreciated. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, Just browsing, I have an interest in matters RGA. This site never ceases to surprise me, whilst visiting the salient earlier this year I took a photograph of the grave relating to Gunner 152415 J.M.McKenzie in Croenart Chapel CWGC. for no other reason than he was RGA. My Grandfather was with 84 HAG in the fields a few hundred yards to the west of this location. I try to obtain photos of the memorial stones to men from batteries who may have been with his Group during this period of 1917, and if I include some who were not,well no harm done. I am no technocrat but if you are interested can send you an image via a pm. I think I can manage that. Incidentally he lies with a comrade, Bombardier 19164 W.A.Mellor RGA. KIA the same day 29.10.1917 Tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Tony, that would be fantastic, I would love a photograph. Here is Gunner 152415 James Murray McKenzie. Thanks also for the information on Bombardier Mellor, i will follow that up.PM me any time, and thanks very much. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, It is interesting that Tony P picked up on Gnr. Mellor. The date is however wrong and he is listed with another two for the 29th Nov 1917. 82113 Masters and 126052 Waldron. I still wonder whether there is something amiss with the CWGC entry. Should Gnr. McKenzie's date be 29th November? In fact there are only the four deaths between 1st October and 1st December that I can find. One for 29 Oct. and 3 for 29 Nov. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Hi Kevin " Should Gnr. McKenzie's date be 29th November? " I don't think so Kevin. There is a report of his death in The People's Journal dated 10/11/1917.SDGW also has 29/10/1917, as does his MIC. Is Bombardier Mellor's CWGC entry wrong? Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, If all the evidence points to the date and unit then obviously I can hardly argue with it. Just a gut feeling.... must be indigestion. Another one that is wrong, or appears to be is 83835 Baker who is listed as KIA with 161 SB, on CWGC, but 181 SB in his records. You may appreciate why I do not take everything at face value. No reason why Gnr Mellor's date is wrong. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, If all the evidence points to the date and unit then obviously I can hardly argue with it. Just a gut feeling.... must be indigestion. Another one that is wrong, or appears to be is 83835 Baker who is listed as KIA with 161 SB, on CWGC, but 181 SB in his records. You may appreciate why I do not take everything at face value. No reason why Gnr Mellor's date is wrong. Kevin No problem Kevin. Who knows you may be on to something. The report in the Newspaper could be wrong. Unfortunately the Diary does not exist. I have the 51st HAG diary for October, and it mentions (161st SB) 1 killed and 1 wounded on the 28th October. To be honest I have not done a lot of work on this man yet, but am getting there. I have downloaded a couple of useful Service records of two men with numbers close to J M McKenzie, that might be useful. Can't remember their numbers off hand, but if you want, I can find their numbers. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 29 November , 2010 Share Posted 29 November , 2010 Mike, I will pm you, I will need your e-mail. I have checked Gnr. Mellor's, I was wrong he was KIA on 29th November, 1917. Thanks for the photograph it will be placed in my album alongside the photograph from croenart. Tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watkinsRGA Posted 11 November , 2014 Share Posted 11 November , 2014 I'm posting an update that I hope may prove useful to anyone else seeking info about the 428 & 161 Sge Bty - there is a personal diary online now of Bombardier Norman Samuel Holland covering the 161 Sge Bty from their arrival in France in late 1916 to spring 1918. http://www.scribd.co...DIARY-1916-1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 12 November , 2014 Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Just stumbled on this thread today. Just to say that 161SB is mentioned briefly in the war diary of 717 Mechanical Transport Company ASC (IX Corps Siege Park)WO95/846 Gives the positions of its 4 x 9.2" hows. as (Sheet 28) o.7.a.4.0 at some point in early-mid September 1917. Then that they've moved out as one of about 14 SBs & HBs from IX Corps as part of 51 HAG on 22/9/1917 (at 7pm). Also mentioned moving into VIII Corps in the War diaries of VIII Corps Siege Park (593 MTCoy. ASC) - WO95/829. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 12 November , 2014 Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Many thanks Dai that might prove very useful. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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