barrieduncan Posted 6 November , 2009 Share Posted 6 November , 2009 Hi all Yesterday I was reading the account of an officer who was a company commander of a Scottish Infantry Battalion in 1914/15. He recounted an incident towards the end of August 1914, when a force of British cavalry were mistaken for German cavalry and subsequently fired upon by soldiers from their own side (the author specifically mentions a battalion of the 19th Independent Brigade). As a result of this 'friendly-fire' incident, he records that a number of the cavalrymen were wounded, and possibly some killed. Specifically, he mentions seeing a Sergeant-Major of one of the cavalry units falling from his horse, mortally wounded. As far as I can establish, this incident happened on the evening of the 26th August, near the outskirts of the village of Maretz. I would like to know if it's possible to make a positive ID of who this man might have been. It is too large an account to quote in full, but here is an extract dealing with the wounded SM: "They let the cavalry approach, when, seeing that they appeared to wear grey uniforms, they opened fire. The cavalry instantly wheeled about and scattered, some loose horses and wounded men galloping into the village, when it was realised that it was a regiment of our cavalry, the waterproof sheets that they wore being grey. I was visiting my posts at the time when, hearing rifle fire, I hurried into the main street. Soon horses came galloping through, the Sergeant-Major of the Regiment falling mortally wounded from his horse in front of us. The band and pipers were put on to removing the wounded cavalrymen, but in the dark some lost their way and were subsequently captured." The author states the Sergeant was mortally wounded - this would imply that his wounds were grevious enough to convince the author the man wouldn't survive them, or that he had confirmation that the man had indeed died. The most likely casualty I was able to find was Quartermaster Serjeant E. J. Tompkins of the 12th Lancers, whose date of death on the CWGC roll of honour is given as the 28th August 1914. http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=2912299 His medal index card states that he died of wounds on this date. I don't have access to SDGW at home, but this was the most likely match that I could find doing a quick search earlier. Can anyone confirm if the 12th Lancers were in this area at the time? Was this incident well recorded at the time, and is it possible to confirm from another source if this man was indeed killed by friendly-fire? Any suggestions or advice would be greatly received. Cheers Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 6 November , 2009 Share Posted 6 November , 2009 Barrie The village of Maretz is situated, in relation to the soldier's grave, some 30 kms to the south. I doubt whether he would be carried that far for burial,but it is possible if they were in retreat, as some units were at that time. Also buried in the same cemetery are a Captain Colloryan and a Private Coote from the same unit,who died on the same day. Another cavalryman from a Hussar unit died the next day. No more after that. The unit War Diary will help resolve this. There are three Diaries in the NA Catalogue for 5 Cavalry Brigade (of 2 Cavalry Division) These two may have the answer,WO95/1139 and 1140. TheCatalogue shows no date range however,though for the other one (WO95/1138) it obviously covers the Brigade HQ for the whole of the War. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 6 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2009 Hi Sotonmate Thanks for the info regarding the distance between the soldiers grave and Maretz; I hadn't thought of that one. I'll have a look at the NA's Documents Online and see if I can make any sense of the war diaries. Thanks for the input. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 7 November , 2009 Share Posted 7 November , 2009 Taking the account as accurate, on the 26th August, there were the following Cavalry deaths (extracted courtesy of Geoff's Search Engine) 43 deaths, mostly 2nd Bttn Scots Greys) but also 3 from 19th (Queens Alexandra's Own) Hussars; and one each from 11th (Prince Albert's) Hussars; 1 from 2nd Dragoon Guards; 1 from 9th (Queen's Royal) Lancers and 1 from 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers. I feel sure that if the 2nd Bttn Royal Scots had suffered 36 deaths and presumably more wounded from a "Blue on Grey" incident, more would be known. whilst a single death might have resulted from the initial volleys, it seems more probable that 3 deaths (plus unknown wounded) could have resulted from this incident. The dead were a Sergeant and 2 privates..... so it could fit Problem is I haven't the expert knowledge to link these deaths/graves to the site of this action to see if they are buried close by where it occurred. For the benefit of those able to correlate the cemeteries to Mametz, these are the non Scots Greys Names. If it is felt that the Scots Greys were the unit, a search on Geoff's by date and unit will give the other Names. CALLAGHAN C 5113 - 26/08/1914 19TH (QUEEN ALEXANDRA'S OWN ROYAL) HUSSARS CHAPMAN GA 4682 - 26/08/1914 11TH (PRINCE ALBERT'S OWN) HUSSARS GIBSON WJ 1684 - 26/08/1914 2ND DRAGOON GUARDS (QUEEN'S BAYS) JAMES G L/1308 - 26/08/1914 9TH (QUEEN'S ROYAL) LANCERS THOMAS AH 8306 - 26/08/1914 19TH (QUEEN ALEXANDRA'S OWN ROYAL) HUSSARS TURNER HC 7873 B SQDN 26/08/1914 19TH (QUEEN ALEXANDRA'S OWN ROYAL) HUSSARS WARDE EJ L/4042 D SQDN 26/08/1914 5TH (ROYAL IRISH) LANCERS Sgt Charles Callaghan is buried at Premont British Cemetery. I hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 7 November , 2009 Share Posted 7 November , 2009 As a grandson of a 19th Hussar (serving as divisional cavalry until April 1915), I have visited most of the regiment's graves in this area - both those from 1914 and those from October 1918 when the war returned them to this area and they suffered badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micks Posted 7 November , 2009 Share Posted 7 November , 2009 Hi Barry It,s highly unlikely that QMS Tompkins is your man . As you are probably aware the 5th Cavalry Brigade had a brisk action between Moy and Cerizy on the 28th . Captain Michell of the 12th Lancers was killed with 4 other ranks. Although there is a discrepancy between Geoff,s search engine and the official fatalities this can probably be explained by those who died of wounds that night and early the next morning. Excluding the Second World War burials those interned in Moy-de L'Aisne almost certainly belong to this action. All the Micks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 7 November , 2009 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2009 I appreciate the responses gentlemen, thank you very much. Kevin - thanks for posting up that list, very useful. L/Sgt G A Chapman was another I had looked at and thought he was a possible match, but given the ranks I wasn't so sure. I guess however, that an infantry officer could have easily mistaken a cavalryman's rank in the heat of the moment. Thanks also Mick for helping elimate QMS Tompkins from the 'possibles'. I think it might prove difficult to get a positive ID given the lack of information in the account, but I wont throw in the towel just yet. Thanks again for the assistance. Barrie P.S. My great-grandfather was a cavalryman (Lanarkshire Yeomanry, 13th and 11th Hussars) so I also have a bit of a personal interest in working out who this man was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 7 November , 2009 Share Posted 7 November , 2009 Hiya,Barrie. I wouldn't worry too much about the distance between action & burial.We have a late 1918 cemetery here & there are several blokes from 1914 actions that were moved to Auberchicourt after the war from single/small burial groups quite a distance away. Just easier for all to use existing cem's,I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 7 November , 2009 Share Posted 7 November , 2009 A few further comments:- Micks has thrown a Captain Michell and the 12th Lancers into the fray, for the 28th and states that Moy de l'Aisne is close to Mametz. I've come up with a sergeant. I have to assume that the officer knew sufficient (or had confirmation from the body) that it was a Sergeant Major. Presumably there would have been an extra chevron to show his rank? I'm a novice on Cavalry units, so perhaps we still have to find a Cavalry Sergeant Major killed near Mametz towards the end of August. On 27th August, these cavalrymen were killed:- BASNETT J 7815 2ND BN L/Corporal 27/08/1914 ROYAL SCOTS BROOKS M 4806 - Private 27/08/1914 20TH HUSSARS FELTHOUSE R 9226 - Private 27/08/1914 11TH (PRINCE ALBERT'S OWN) HUSSARS INNES WM 723 - Private 27/08/1914 2ND DRAGOONS (ROYAL SCOTS GREYS) PINCH T 11135 2ND BN L/Corporal 27/08/1914 ROYAL SCOTS RACKLEY WA 6886 - L/Corporal 27/08/1914 11TH (PRINCE ALBERT'S OWN) HUSSARS RUTTER TG 8807 - Private 27/08/1914 11TH (PRINCE ALBERT'S OWN) HUSSARS SHENTON WF 9417 - L/Corporal 27/08/1914 11TH (PRINCE ALBERT'S OWN) HUSSARS WILKES W 526 - Private 27/08/1914 15TH (THE KING'S) HUSSARS On 28th we have:- COOTE C 1561 - Private 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS FALCONER W 8427 2ND BN L/Sergeant 28/08/1914 ROYAL SCOTS GORE HG 4458 - Corporal 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS GREEN R 8878 2ND BN Sergeant (Drummer) 28/08/1914 ROYAL SCOTS HERRIOTT HA 8608 - L/Corporal 28/08/1914 15TH (THE KING'S) HUSSARS HUNT AD 2825 - Private 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS KEEN WCH 10290 - Private 28/08/1914 20TH HUSSARS KNIGHT H L/3629 - L/Corporal 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS MICHELL JC - - Captain 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS NOLAN H 1746 - Private 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS ORAM FGW 2408 - Died UK 28/08/1914 1ST LIFE GUARDS SWETENHAM F - - Major 28/08/1914 2ND DRAGOONS (ROYAL SCOTS GREYS) TOMPKINS EJ 4873 - Q/M Serjeant 28/08/1914 12TH (PRINCE OF WALES'S ROYAL) LANCERS Of these, Major Swetenham is buried at Moy de l'Aisne, so could it have been a MAJOR, not Sergeant Major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 April , 2013 Share Posted 1 April , 2013 Hi Barry my very first post, i know it's a while since this post but just browsing and came across it. I have a report from a stretcher bearer captured at Maretz 26/27th August 1914 !st Cameronians, my interest is in a Bandsman Austin mentioned in this report and i copy it for you and may help with your research. Ash A Bandsman N0 8448 1st cameronians i enlisted in 1904 as a Bandsman. On the night of the26th of August 191,at Maretz, i was attached to d Company of my battalion as a stretcher beare. About 8p.m. we opened fire on the enemy; presently Corporal Lee came to the Company and asked for stretcher bearers to bring in some wounded. i went and brought in a Sergeant Major of the Hussars badly wounded. Lance Corporal Ash,my brother and Smith were with one stretcher, and myself and Bandsman Austin with the other. We were told to remain with the wounded till help was sent to us; this never came, and in the morning of the 27th of August having previously got the wounded into a house, i went out to see if i could see any of our men coming to help, when i saw some Uhlans riding towards us, and i was captured and taken into the village of Maretz. here i found the place in the posession of the Germans... He goes on to tell of his capture and how his brother was looking after the Sergeant Major when a German looting party with fixed bayonets came to the house they were using for the wounded, and tried to stab the Sergeant Major. Bandsman Ash finished up in Doberitz and his report is quite thorough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Baud2Bits Posted 5 June , 2014 Share Posted 5 June , 2014 I realise that I am late to this but I am doing a little research for a YouTube series and came across something which might be relevant. On Page 18 of Frank Richards 'Old Soldiers Never Die' he discusses an incident on the 26th August. He was with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers patrolling out of Le Cateau. At dusk they mistakenly engaged the 19th Hussars, having been told that all British cavalry patrols were in. He says that he only fired two rounds before the bugle sounded the cease fire but he saw several horses fall. He never discovered if anyone had been killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 June , 2014 Share Posted 5 June , 2014 Dunn's The War the Infantry Knew [2nd RWF] makes it clear that Solly Flood [?] urged a dubious 2nd RWF to open fire on the friendlies at 500 yards...... the capes were the problem. No details of casualties given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 5 June , 2014 Admin Share Posted 5 June , 2014 There is a lengthy Q&A appendix in the 2 RWF August 1914 war diary covering a lot of the month's events from mobilization onwards. A note is included covering this incident and it is reported that several men were wounded and some horses killed. It specifically points out that there were no fatalities amongst the men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 Solly Flood [?] Major Arthur Solly-Flood, probably. 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards. Went on to command 42nd (East Lancashire) Division. DSO. Sadly the history of the 4th DG is extremely sparse and there's no mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 Glen You rather stole my thunder - the Q and A session has been transcribed within the CAB45 documents - the 'original' would appear to be in the diary. However in the notes on this interview which are with it (presumably written by Edmonds or one of his team) state; 'Cavalry encountered near Maretz were 11th, 19th Hussars' I haven't the 19th Hussars war diary. However the 11th Hussars diary has A Sqn detached with a separate report which stated that at about 6.30pm they crossing a railway line 2 miles NE of Busigny and were fired on from a hill and moved to cover and proceeded in their original direction having been separated from some of their number; '.. and met a post of our infantry , who informed me they were part of left flank guard to column retiring south, also that I had been fired on by British troops, tried to communicate with men lost, but patrols ran into German cavalry and at dark marched with retiring column to Estries.' The main part of the war diary described A Sqn as having been scattered by enemy fire. I hope this helps; I'm not sure if there's a regimental history for the Cherrypickers which might elaborate on this. 19th Hussars diary might also shed some light. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 A Squadron of the 11th (Captain A B Lawson) was rejoining the regiment following an abortive attempt to contact Brigade, when, travelling along the line of the railway from le Cateau to Busigny, they came under shell fire which caused them to open up formation and head west. They were crossing the railway line at dusk, and travelling along the line before heading south, when they came under rifle fire from a wood about a mile and a half north of Busigny. Lawson crossed the line with 3 and 4 Troops; a part of 2 Troop followed, but the other half of 2 went back and joined 1 Troop, with Lt F V Drake, who ended up running into Germans, with only Drake and one Private making it back safely. 35 were captured and two (Fowler and Noble) evaded - Noble being captured and shot in 1915, Fowler surviving the war (in a cupboard). Three men were missing, believed killed, and 2 died of wounds in German hand. The riflemen who fired were the 1st RWF - OR a party of Divisional Cavalry. The dead were Saddler Lance Sergeant G A Chapman Lance Corporal W A Rackley Lance Corporal E Waugh Private R Felthouse Private F Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 The riflemen who fired were the 1st RWF Damned good shooting from Malta, then! Try 2nd RWF!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 Gents The 19th Hussars war diaries add the following: B Sqn - 'In afternoon covered the retirement of the infantry rearguard along line of railway to Busigny.' 7pm 'at dusk was in action dismounted against German cavalry patrol when my lead horses were heavily fired into by the infantry rearguard, they stampeded + I saw no more of them that night. I returned under the command of Major Flood (who was present) to Maretz ...' The diary also mentions the inability of 1 man to hold 4 fit horses under heavy fire at close range. The mention of the men being dismounted and stampeding horses may suggest that this was a separate instance as opposed to mentions of mounted cavalry elsewhere above. This suggests Major Solly-Flood was present at least in support of the assertion that he gave the orders. He was in command of a composite regiment with A and B Sqns 19th Hussars and 1/2 a Sqn of 4th DG. Nothing relevant in the 4th DG war diary on cursory examination. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 The riflemen who fired were the 1st RWF Damned good shooting from Malta, then! Try 2nd RWF!! I only quoted the book. You'd hardly expect cavalrymen to worry about foot-sloggers identity would you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 June , 2014 Share Posted 6 June , 2014 You'd hardly expect them to be able to tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 23 June , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 June , 2014 Hi Barry my very first post, i know it's a while since this post but just browsing and came across it. I have a report from a stretcher bearer captured at Maretz 26/27th August 1914 !st Cameronians, my interest is in a Bandsman Austin mentioned in this report and i copy it for you and may help with your research. Ash A Bandsman N0 8448 1st cameronians i enlisted in 1904 as a Bandsman. On the night of the26th of August 191,at Maretz, i was attached to d Company of my battalion as a stretcher beare. About 8p.m. we opened fire on the enemy; presently Corporal Lee came to the Company and asked for stretcher bearers to bring in some wounded. i went and brought in a Sergeant Major of the Hussars badly wounded. Lance Corporal Ash,my brother and Smith were with one stretcher, and myself and Bandsman Austin with the other. We were told to remain with the wounded till help was sent to us; this never came, and in the morning of the 27th of August having previously got the wounded into a house, i went out to see if i could see any of our men coming to help, when i saw some Uhlans riding towards us, and i was captured and taken into the village of Maretz. here i found the place in the posession of the Germans... He goes on to tell of his capture and how his brother was looking after the Sergeant Major when a German looting party with fixed bayonets came to the house they were using for the wounded, and tried to stab the Sergeant Major. Bandsman Ash finished up in Doberitz and his report is quite thorough. I've missed a few posts on this topic; thank you again for the replies. Troyon, thank you for this very interesting extract. Was this at the National Archives? I'd be interested in seeing the full account if possible. Thanks Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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