The Unknown Warrior

[Bitsa]

Just recently I was wondering how the Unknown Warrior who lies in Westminster Abbey, came to be chosen. Then today I came across an extract from 'The Age of Illusion' by Ronald Blythe, first published in 1963, which explained exactly how it all happened.

I would have liked to put it on the forum for anyone else who might be interested to know about this but I am unsure how things stand with copyright. Can anyone else tell me what the situation is?

In the meantime if anyone is interested to read the extract I will send it to them if they PM me with their email address.

Bitsa.

[IanA]

This has been discussed many times. Here is one such thread -

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...n+warrior\

[dycer]

Bitsa,

As far as my Father was concerned " he is my Brother".

It is too easy to try and place him,when he stands for loss.

I would be really upset,if after all these years,deep research took place to determine who he is.

George

[Bitsa]

I'm not quite sure if you got the wrong end of the stick dycer but I certainly wasn't talking about anyone trying to find out who the Unknown Warrior actually was. I was just curious to know how it was, that that particular soldier came to be buried there and it turns out that it really was a very random selection.

On November 9th 1920, six small working parties each went to the six main battlefields, Ypres, the Marne, Cambrai, Arras, the Somme and the Aisne. A nameless corpse was selected from the mass of unmarked graves at each site and placed in a wooden coffin. Each coffin was then taken to an army hut near Ypres where they were received by a clergyman.

Here the coffins were laid side by side and all those who had been involved in the operation to this point, left the scene. Then an officer who had not been inside the hut was blindfolded and taken to the door. He entered and as he walked in the dark, the first coffin that his hand touch was the one chosen.

Bitsa.

[rendellers]

A good read, in my opinion, is 'The Unkmown Soldier' by Neil Hanson.Can't find the thread I was looking for but I have since remained disturbed by the passage on p 434 about the burial of the unselected bodies so forgive me for quoting again: 'the area had been the scene of heavy fighting, and there were shell craters and "old trenches running in all directions. The burial party quickly selected a spot and ... the three bodies were buried on a shell hole on the road to Albert, to which the chaplain added a simple prayer" The footnote attributes this to Sir Cecil Smith to the Dean of Westminster July 1978 westminster Abbey.

Don't want to hijack the thread but can anyone point me in the direction where I can find out more about this!

[Ron Clifton]

An interesting sidelight on the story is that Dr Ryle, who was Dean of Westminster at the time and helped smooth the way for the burial to go ahead, is himself buried next to the UW's grave, on the side further from the main West doors.

Ron

[auchonvillerssomme]

The Daily Telegraph of 09 Nov 2008

Amid all the public anguish, no one thought to wonder what had become of the other three bodies that had been disinterred from their unmarked graves. A rather less exalted fate awaited them.

After Brig Wyatt had made his choice, the Union flags were folded away. Then the three bodies were loaded onto the back of a truck, tipped into a shell hole beside the road near the town of Albert – and promptly forgotten.

I'm sure that there is a thread somewhere on the forum that refutes this.

Mick

[izzy]

One of the earlier issues of After the Battle Dealt in this i believe back issues are still available.

[truthergw]

A couple of questions occur to me and they are genuine questions, not bait. Three of the areas which supplied a corpse were as much French as British battlefields. Was there some selection applied to make sure the soldier was British? The selection at Ypres was from six. Why were there only three re-interred?

[dycer]

I despair.

The Unknown Warrior was buried in Westminster Abbey, with due ceremony,and if I recall correctly in French/Belgian Earth.

Why should we,after 90 years,start an investigation into how he was chosen,the rejected allegedly disposed of, etc.

I accept that a Historian,desirous of producing a Book,can see merit in examining the method of selection,transport,etc for a Book sale.

But something that has never been explained, to my satisfaction.Those grieving Families,who either were unable to visit the near Continent or had no desire/means to visit the Capital were content to accept their Loved One,may be resting in London,which was as probably as far away from their daily lives as Outer Space.

Do we not owe a little to those Families whom the Warrior represents?

George

p.s.Tom,Can we be certain he is British?Assuming he wore a British Uniform,he could have as easily be Australian,Canadian,South African or from New Zealand.Were his Collar Badges checked?Rhetorical question.

[pmaasz]

According to the latest WFA Bulletin there were four un-identified bodies, not six, one from each of the four Graves Registration regions. It also rebuts the story that the Union flag that hangs near the Unknown soldier's tomb in Westminster Abbey is the flag that covered the coffin on its journey to the Abbey from Dover.

[Bitsa]

Blimey, I wish I hadn't bothered now, I didn't intend to start an argument.

It was just an innocent little thought that wandered through my mind a couple of weeks back, "how come it was that particular man?" and then when I found the answer yesterday, I thought other people might have had the same thought and might also like to know the answer.

Right, I'm off back into my trench now, I might venture out again when it all quietens down.

Bitsa.

[bruce]

My mind, such as it is, works in mysterious ways.

I have often wondered about the officer who selected the coffin. He was led into a darkened hut, after being blindfolded, and the first coffin he touched was the one chosen.

If the hut was already dark, why the need for a blindfold?

A minor question, but I thought I'd ask!

Bruce

[Tony Ring]

Just recently I was wondering how the Unknown Warrior who lies in Westminster Abbey, came to be chosen. Then today I came across an extract from 'The Age of Illusion' by Ronald Blythe, first published in 1963, which explained exactly how it all happened.

I would have liked to put it on the forum for anyone else who might be interested to know about this but I am unsure how things stand with copyright. Can anyone else tell me what the situation is?

In the meantime if anyone is interested to read the extract I will send it to them if they PM me with their email address.

Bitsa.

Bitsa

I have "The Unknown Soldier" by Neil Hanson. It follows 2 soldiers (British & German) plus a pilot (Amercian) through the great war until they were KIA. Their bodies were never recovered.

There is also a detailed account of the selection of the Unknown Warrior.

A good read !!!

Tony

[Rayessex]

Niel Hansons book the unknown Soldier, covers all this in great detail. As far as I remember he tells how the bodies of 4 unknowns were collected, and how they determined they were from the British Isles. The bodies could not have any identifying objects on their person, Regimental insignia, letters home or the like. I also seem to remember the bodies were collected in sacks, and those not selected were returned to their final burial place in sacks,

I read the book along time ago but I`m sure there was no mention of the selecting officer being blindfolded. He simply entered the tent and placed his hand on one set of remains, which were then placed in a coffin and started their journey to England.

Was a fantastic book well worth a read. No doubt someone will know better, but as I said, I read the book along time ago.

Ray

[findabetterole]

Gents,

I composed a paper on the British Unknown Warrior for a WW1 discussion forum that I used to belong to a few years back. I carried out a fair amount of research at the time, so please forgive my not mentioning any main charactors names.. its been a long time, and I'm bringing out from memory.

The main instigator for the Unknown Warrior was a Padre who served in the trenches himself. The flag which hangs to the side of the UW was his 'Alter Cover' at the front during the conflict. The Padre suggested that in connection to the Cenetaph's unveiling in 1920 ( a wooden structure at that time ), an unknown soldier (known only unto God) should be exhumed, and brought to England for the nation to focus its mourning. After lengthy discussion, it was agreed that six working parties would go out.. one to each of the major battlefields... and exhume a British soldier from a grave marked as 'Unknown'. The reason for the exhumation was never divulged to any of those taking part. Each coffin was taken to a small civilian chapel where each was placed side-by-side.. the working parties being dismissed immediatelly to resume their normal military duties.

The British Commander in Chief at the time, was blindfolded, and with the help of an officer aide-de-camp, was led into the chapel. Once released from the Aid-de-camps grasp, the first coffin that the CiC placed his hand upon, the coffins contents were to become the official British Unknown Warrior. The remaining coffins were buried in the military section of a local graveyard. After several other arrangements, the coffin, under French military escort, was taken to Marsailles, where it remained overnight under French military guard. The British Warship.. H.M.S. Verdun.... as a mark of respect for France's stand at that location during the war.. was chosen to ferry the coffin and six casks of soil (one from each of the battlefields) to England.

One Hundred VC holders were at the funeral, six carrying the coffin inside the cathedral.

I could go on, but there are several books that between them, tell the full story.

Seph

[NigelS]

The Daily Telegraph of 09 Nov 2008

Amid all the public anguish, no one thought to wonder what had become of the other three bodies that had been disinterred from their unmarked graves. A rather less exalted fate awaited them.

After Brig Wyatt had made his choice, the Union flags were folded away. Then the three bodies were loaded onto the back of a truck, tipped into a shell hole beside the road near the town of Albert – and promptly forgotten.

I'm sure that there is a thread somewhere on the forum that refutes this.

There was Mick, I started it!

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1045541

NigelS

[blighty valley]

I'm not quite sure if you got the wrong end of the stick dycer but I certainly wasn't talking about anyone trying to find out who the Unknown Warrior actually was. I was just curious to know how it was, that that particular soldier came to be buried there and it turns out that it really was a very random selection.

On November 9th 1920, six small working parties each went to the six main battlefields, Ypres, the Marne, Cambrai, Arras, the Somme and the Aisne. A nameless corpse was selected from the mass of unmarked graves at each site and placed in a wooden coffin. Each coffin was then taken to an army hut near Ypres where they were received by a clergyman.

Here the coffins were laid side by side and all those who had been involved in the operation to this point, left the scene. Then an officer who had not been inside the hut was blindfolded and taken to the door. He entered and as he walked in the dark, the first coffin that his hand touch was the one chosen.

Bitsa.

I thought the unknown warrior was chosen in the village of St Pol in France there is a memorial in the town to say this

[findabetterole]

I thought the unknown warrior was chosen in the village of St Pol in France there is a memorial in the town to say this

As I understood the information at the time of my research.. the choise was made from a small chapel on the outskirts... to avoid undue attention.

Seph

[pmaasz]

Seph: Why would the coffin have been taken to Marseilles? I think you mean Boulogne! And once again, the WFA Bulletin article is very clear ans specific regarding the selection of one unknown soldier's coffin to be exhumed in each of the four DGRE areas, from which one was chosen to be shipped to England.

[Bitsa]

Is it safe to come out now?

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this. One thing seems certain and that is that nothing is really certain about the selection of the Unknown Warrior. Most of the accounts seem to be similar but they all seem to vary in some way but at least now I have some idea of how that particular person came to be lying in Westminster Abbey.

Bitsa.

[Andrew Upton]

The Padre suggested that in connection to the Cenetaph's unveiling in 1920 ( a wooden structure at that time)...

Not quite correct Seph - the original structure of the 1919 Cenetoph was wooden, but only originally as a temporary measure. Such was it's popularity though that it was permanantly replaced with the stone version by the same time in 1920:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph

[dycer]

Bitza,

We all have Crosses to bear.

Often,in response to a Thread ,to advance it,we,have to defer, to Contributors who list their desires,e.g Plaque,Medals,etc?

It must be understood,that the Unknown Warrior,is entitled to a Plaque and Medals on his behalf.

But were they ever claimed?

George

[Bitsa]

I'm not quite sure why you keep taking pot shots at me George. I'm very sorry if my feeble attempts at humour don't amuse you but as you say, we all have our cross to bear.

I'm going back to my knitting, it's safer.

[jay dubaya]

Knitting - safe, just what school of thought does that come from?

During the Great War a British Army Chaplain, the Reverend David Railton, MC (1884-1955), near Armentieres, saw a grave bearing a pencilled inscription 'An Unknown Soldier of the Black Watch'. It gave him an idea that later became a national memorial.

It was not until 1920, the year that the Cenotaph in London was unveiled, that he was able to put forward his plan. He approached the Dean of Westminster, the Right Reverend Herbert Ryle, and suggested that an unknown soldier be brought from the battlefields of France and buried among the nation's illustrious dead in Westminster Abbey. The Dean was able to persuade the Government of the day to accept this innovative idea.

A committee, headed by Lord Curzon, recommended that the foreign minister should arrange for an unknown soldier to be disinterred in France and brought to the Abbey. It further recommended that the burial should be on Armistice Day and that King George V should be asked if, after he had unveiled the new Cenotaph in Whitehall, he would follow the gun-carriage bearing the body to Westminster Abbey.

The British authorities gave very little information about the selection of the Unknown Warrior, and it was not until, Armistice Day 1939 - 19 years later - that Brigadier-General L J Wyatt, DSO, in a letter to The Daily Telegraph, made the facts public.

The Brigadier-General as general officer in charge of troops in France and Flanders, and director of the Imperial War Graves Commission, was given instructions that the body of a British soldier, whom it would be impossible to identify, should be brought in from each of the four battle areas - the Aisne, the Somne, Arras and Ypres - on the night of 7 November and placed in the chapel at St. Pol.

The party pinging each body was to return a once to its area, so that there should be no chance of anyone knowing the choice. The bodies, carried in ambulances, were received by the Reverend George Kendall, OBE at the chapel, and a guard set at the door. In front of the altar was the shell of the coffin which had been sent out from Britain to receive the remains.

The bodies, each covered with a Union Jack, were placed in a row on stretchers. At midnight on 7 November the Brigadier, accompanied by Colonel Gell, entered the chapel. He selected a body, and with the Colonel's help placed it in the shell and screwed down the lid.

As Brigadier-General Wyatt said, "I had no idea even of the area from which the body I selected had come, and no one else can know it." The other bodies were re-buried in the military cemetery at St. Pol.

The following morning, chaplains of the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and non-conformist churches held a service in the chapel. At noon the body was sent, under escort, to Boulonge.

At 3.30pm, after passing through troops lining the outskirts of the city, the ambulance drew up at an old castle, the local headquarters of the French Army.

Eight soldiers including a sergeant-major of the Royal Army Service Corps, a sergeant of the Royal Engineers, a gunner of the Royal Field Artillery, an Australian Light Horseman, a private each from the Canadian infantry, and Machine Gun Corps, and a rifleman from the 21st London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles) stepped forward as bearers.

The castle library had been turned into a chapel of rest. The body was taken in through corridors lined by French soldiers. A French company furnished the guard throughout the last night on French soil. No British troops were present.

At noon the next day, the rough wooden shell was placed in a plain oak coffin sent from Britain the previous night. This had wrought-iron bands through one of which was passed a 16th century Crusader's sword from the Tower of London's collection.

The coffin, of Hampton Court oak, presented by the British Undertakers Association, and bearing the inscription A British Warrior who fell in the Great War 1914-18 for King and Country, was placed on a French military wagon drawn by six horses and, escorted by French troops.

It was taken into Boulogne, where the destroyer HMS Verdun was waiting, sent by the Admiralty as a special tribute to the French nation and the gallant defence of that city. The cortege was a mile long.

The French Government sent a division of all arms to pay their last tribute. Marshal Ferdinand Foch, representing the French nation spoke, and Lieutenant General Sir George Macdonagh replied on behalf of King George. General Weygand, together with many other distinguished high-ranking French and British officers were present.

Aboard the destroyer, the bearer party laid the coffin on the deck. Six barrels of soil from the Ypres salient were put aboard to be placed in the tomb in Westminster Abbey, so that the body should rest in soil on which so many troops had given up their lives.

As HMS Verdun moved off, a guard of Bluejackets and guns on shore fired a salute. An escort of six destroyers joined the ship and, later, as she steamed into Dover Harbour, a 19-gun salute was fired from the castle. Six warrant officers from the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, the army and the Royal Air Force acted as bearers and six officers from all services brought the body ashore.

It was followed to the marine station by Sir George Macdonagh, the officers of the garrison and the Mayor and Corporation of Dover, where it received a salute from a guard of honour of the 2nd Connaught Rangers and the Duke of York's Military School. The carriage in which the coffin was placed was that which had carried home Nurse Edith Cavell and Captain Fryatt.

More than an hour elapsed before the London-bound train started, during which time four sentries, one from each service stood guard. The coffin remained on the train overnight and was then taken over by the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards.

The coffin, covered by a Union Jack, with a steel helmet, side arms and a webbing belt placed on it, was put on to a gun carriage drawn by six horses and slowly made its way to the Cenotaph, led by the firing party and the bands of the Coldstream, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards. Troops from all services followed.

The pall bearers were Sir Hedworth Meux, Earl Beatty, Sir Charles Madden, General Gatliff, Sir Henry Jackson, Lord Byng; Lord Home, Sir Henry Wilson, Earl Haig, Lord French, Lord Methuen and Sir Hugh Trenchard.

As the gun-carriage drew up at the Cenotaph, King George stepped forward and placed a wreath of red roses and bay leaves on the coffin.

After the Silence, the gun-carriage moved off with King George, as chief mourner, taking his place behind it, followed by the Prince of Wales, the Duke of York, Prince Henry, the Duke of Connaught, the Marquis of Milford Haven, the Prime Minister and ministers of State.

100 Victoria Crosses

At the door of the Abbey, the coffin was met by the clergy, and borne by NCOs of the Guards, passed through two lines of 100 holders of the Victoria Cross, some in uniform, some in plain clothes, under the command of Colonel Bernard Freyberg VC. Behind these were the widows and mothers of the fallen.

The service was conducted by the Dean of Westminster with music by English composers including Kipling's Recessional. During the singing of Lead Kindly Light, the bearers removed the helmet and side arms from the coffin and lowered it into the tomb. At the committal, the King scattered earth from the battlefields from a silver shell.

After a roll of drums, the poignant notes of the Last Post rang out, followed by Reveille. Finally the two lines of VC holders filed past. The honours paid were those due to a Field Marshal.

In 1923, the then Duchess of York, later Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother placed her wedding bouquet on the tomb. It was an appropriate gesture as her brother, Captain the Honourable Fergus Bowes-Lyon, Black Watch, had been killed at Loos on 27 September 1915 and had no known grave. Who is to know she was not laying the flowers on his grave?

The new black marble stone from Belgium was laid on the Tomb in 1921. The inscription was provided by Dean Herbert Ryle. The famous text, They buried him among the Kings, because he had done good toward God and toward His House, is more than 500 years old and is as King Richard II had inscribed on the tomb of his friend the Bishop of Salisbury, also buried in Westminster Abbey.

I started a similar thread some time ago, it can be found here. Squirrel kindly sent me a copy of the mentioned article which with the above and Neil Oliver's quote (see end of post) completes the story of the Unknown Warrior. Should anyone wish to see the Funeral Director's report please just ask,

cheers, Jon