HOW MANY MEN IN A SEIGE BATTERY

[Jenni Birdseye]

MY GRANDAD SERVED IN 289 SEIGE BATTERY 1916/17 SO WONDERED HOW MANY MEN WOULD THAT BE IN TOTAL IE.C/OS & NCO'S

Would there be a diary in afile anywhere that would tell me where his battery was on a given date too?

Many thanks - Jenni

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Jenni, and welcome to the Forum.

289 Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery was formed at Plymouth in November 1916. I cannot trace when it went to France but its War Diary for most of 1917 is in the National Archives at Kew in the following file:

WO 95/325 289 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - Nov.

In November 1917 it was sent to Italy as part of 80 (Mobile) Brigade RGA, and remained there for the rest of the War. Its War Diary for that period is in:

WO 95/4205 289 Seige Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Dec. - 1918 May

For the other months you may find a record of its activities in the diary of 80 Brigade RGA, which in each case is in the same actual box file.

It was equipped with six-inch howitzers., the commonest weapon of the siege batteries. At first it only had four, but this was increased to six in August 1917 as part of a general increase around that time.

A four-gun battery had seven officers and 208 other ranks; a six-gun battery had eight officers and 291 other ranks.

Ron

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello Ron,

Do you have a breakdown for the battery, ie how each man was employed in doing within the battery, number of men per gun, battery HQ etc. Also was a battery self sufficient, or did it rely on the Brigade it was part of for Cooks house and admin etc?

Sorry for all of these questions, I just can't seem to find this information anywhere. If you have any diagrams, that would be even better.

Regards,

Stewart

[IPT]

Here's a few bits which may help;

Personnel and transport for these units varied considerably according to weapon and changes in establishment. 1914 establishments specify the following:

Heavy Battery. 207 men all ranks, 29 R1/2 horses and 115 HD horses.

Siege Battery 289 men all ranks, 30 R1/2 horses and 160 HD horses.

By 1917 there was no real distinction between siege and heavy brigades and all brigades were referred to as ‘heavy brigades’.

Heavy batteries consisted of 60pdr guns and siege batteries all other calibres of medium and heavy artillery.

In 1917 all 60pdr and 6”, 8”, and 9.2” howitzer batteries were increased from 4 guns to 6 in common with changes to field artillery. This had less to do with increasing the firepower of a battery than it did with a shortage of battery commanders.

There were five types of heavy brigades:

Mobile brigades: 2 x batteries 60pdr and 2 x batteries 6” howitzers (16-24 tubes total)

Mixed brigades: As above with the addition of 1 x battery 8” howitzer and 1 x battery 9.2” howitzers. (24-36 tubes total)

8” howitzer brigades: 3 x batteries 6” howitzers and 1 x 8” howitzer battery. (16-24 tubes total)

9.2” howitzer brigades: 3 x 6” howitzer batteries and 1 x 8” howitzer battery. (16-24 tubes total)

Army brigades. Administrative army level unit. Looked after batteries of 6”, 9.2”, 12” and 14” guns and 12” and 15” howitzers.

6” gun battery: 4 x guns

9.2”, 12”, 14” guns and 12” howitzer batteries: 2 x tubes

15” howitzer battery: 1 x howitzer.

All weapons except 6” guns and some 12” howitzers were rail mounted.

15” rail guns manned by Royal Marine Artillery

Pinched from http://www.firstworldwar.bham.ac.uk/Reply%...n%20Moretti.doc

[Ron Clifton]

9.2” howitzer brigades: 3 x 6” howitzer batteries and 1 x 8” howitzer battery. (16-24 tubes total)

All weapons except 6” guns and some 12” howitzers were rail mounted.

15” rail guns manned by Royal Marine Artillery

Hello IPT

Just a few cosmetic corrections:

9.2-inch howitzer brigade had 3 x 6” howitzer batteries and 1 x 9.2” (not 8")howitzer battery. (Just a cut and paste mistake, I think)

15-inch howitzers were not rail mounted but were manned by the RMA.

"All weapons except ..." only refers to batteries under Army Brigades RGA, not to those in other types of brigade.

Ron

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Stewart

Here are some figures extracted from War Establishments:

August 1916 Heavy Artillery Battery and Ammunition Column (6 x 60-pounder guns)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 8 Serjeants, Farrier-Serjeant, 3 Shoeing-smiths (incl one cpl), 2 Saddlers, 1 Wheeler, 1 Staff-Sjt Fitter, 1 Smith, 7 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 110 Gunners, 71 Drivers, 7 Batmen.

Attached: Serjeant AVC, 3 Drivers ASC.

Ammunition Column: Subaltern, 1 Serjeant, 2 Shoeing-smiths, 1 Saddler, 1 Wheeler, 1 Fitter, 1 Corporal, 2 Bombardiers, 12 Gunners, 35 Gunners as Drivers, 1 Batman. Attached: 1 Driver ASC.

September 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (4 x 6" howitzers, horse drawn)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 7 Serjeants, Farrier-Serjeant, 3 Shoeing-smiths (incl one cpl), 2 Saddlers, 1 Wheeler, 2 Smiths, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 90 Gunners, 47 Drivers, 7 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC, Serjeant AVC, 2 Drivers ASC.

Transport personnel: Subaltern, 2 Serjeants, 2 Corporals, 21 Drivers, 1 Batman.

September 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (4 x 6" howitzers, tractor drawn)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 5 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 6 Bombardiers, 100 Gunners, 6 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 3 Corporals, 38 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

September 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (4 x 6" guns)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 6 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 120 Gunners, 6 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 6 Corporals, 71 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

September 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (4 x 8" howitzers)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 5 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 120 Gunners, 6 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 6 Corporals, 64 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

September 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (4 x 9.2" howitzers)

Battery: Major, Captain, 4 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 5 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 120 Gunners, 6 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 8 Corporals, 83 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

December 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (6 x 6" howitzers, horse drawn)

Battery: Major, Captain, 5 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 8 Serjeants, Farrier-Serjeant, 3 Shoeing-smiths (incl one cpl), 3 Saddlers, 2 Wheeler, 3 Smiths, 2 Trumpeters, 6 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 135 Gunners, 70 Drivers, 8 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC, Serjeant AVC, 3 Drivers ASC.

Transport personnel: Subaltern, 2 Serjeants, 3 Corporals, 29 Drivers, 1 Batman.

December 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (6 x 6" howitzers, tractor drawn)

Battery: Major, Captain, 5 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 7 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 8 Corporals, 8 Bombardiers, 150 Gunners, 7 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 4 Serjeants, 5 Corporals, 52 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

December 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (6 x 8" howitzers)

Battery: Major, Captain, 6 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 7 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 8 Corporals, 12 Bombardiers, 180 Gunners, 8 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 4 Serjeants, 10 Corporals, 90 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

December 1916 Siege Artillery Battery (6 x 9.2" howitzers)

Battery: Major, Captain, 6 Subalterns, BSM, BQMS, 7 Serjeants, 2 Smiths, 1 Wheeler, 2 Trumpeters, 8 Corporals, 12 Bombardiers, 180 Gunners, 8 Batmen.

Attached: Armament Artificer AOC.

Transport personnel: 2 Subalterns, 3 Serjeants, 13 Corporals, 121 Drivers, 2 Batmen.

Were they self-sufficient? The answer is generally yes, at least until late 1917 when their allocations to HAGs/Brigades became more permanent. For such matters as medical and veterinary cover they would be placed under the care of appropriate officers by the Cdr HAG or Cdr Corps HA of the Corps to which they were attached at the time:

August 1916 Headquarters of Corps Heavy Artillery

Commander, Brigade Major, Staff Captain, Vet Officer, OC ASC (Major), Captain ASC (workshops).

4 clerks, 1 staff-serjeant, 12 artificers, 30 rank and file.

August 1916 Headquarters of a Heavy Artillery Group

Lt-Col commanding, Adjutant, Orderly Officer, Medical Officer.

Serjeant-Major, 1 Serjeant, 2 Clerks (one a sjt), 1 Corporal, 2 Bombardiers,

13 Gunners, 2 Drivers, 2 MO's Orderlies, 3 Ptes RAMC, 2 M/cyclists ASC, 5 Drivers ASC MT, 1 Interpreter, 4 Batmen.

I don't have breakdowns into gun detachments, I'm afraid, although as a rule of thumb these were normally about ten men per weapon, depending on the type, and most had "double detachments" so they could keep up continuous fire over long periods if necessary. These figures includes ammunition carriers. You can assume one sergeant, one corporal and one bombardier per gun detachment: the rest, and the other Gunners, were signallers, observers, range-takers, spares to replace casualties, and other support to the battery commander.

Ron

[IPT]

Hello IPT

Just a few cosmetic corrections:

9.2-inch howitzer brigade had 3 x 6" howitzer batteries and 1 x 9.2" (not 8")howitzer battery. (Just a cut and paste mistake, I think)

15-inch howitzers were not rail mounted but were manned by the RMA.

"All weapons except ..." only refers to batteries under Army Brigades RGA, not to those in other types of brigade.

Ron

I must be more careful where I steal my information. Looked a really good source!

(or wait for an expert to arrive, perhaps)

[Jenni Birdseye]

Hello Jenni, and welcome to the Forum.

289 Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery was formed at Plymouth in November 1916. I cannot trace when it went to France but its War Diary for most of 1917 is in the National Archives at Kew in the following file:

WO 95/325 289 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - Nov.

In November 1917 it was sent to Italy as part of 80 (Mobile) Brigade RGA, and remained there for the rest of the War. Its War Diary for that period is in:

WO 95/4205 289 Seige Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Dec. - 1918 May

For the other months you may find a record of its activities in the diary of 80 Brigade RGA, which in each case is in the same actual box file.

It was equipped with six-inch howitzers., the commonest weapon of the siege batteries. At first it only had four, but this was increased to six in August 1917 as part of a general increase around that time.

A four-gun battery had seven officers and 208 other ranks; a six-gun battery had eight officers and 291 other ranks.

Ron

You guys are brilliant - thanks for all the info Jenni

[ororkep]

What is his name and number Jenni, and was he in Italy?

Rgds

Paul

[Jenni Birdseye]

What is his name and number Jenni, and was he in Italy?

Rgds

Paul

[Jenni Birdseye]

Gunner James Alfred Blackmore 64330 some documents have it as 64530 strange! DOB demob details 36 coy 6.12.1915 289 sge posted 11.11.1916 then 289 para 392 KR 14.3.1918 (discharged due to ill health we thought he had been gassed but it says due to Scarletina. There was also RFA/24 on the document but most of this is very blurry.

On his army form b104 - * 5* cant read the rest of the number but it is an inside sheet Registry number *** 185/7815 WOCas list HA 14535 28.9.17 cant read info then last column date 9/10/17. Next entry below is AHO125/940 then next column WOC list H B 8474 Sick am 3 *** Gen Hos Sheffield 21/10/17.

Would he have been shipped home directly afer he had been "injured" as we thought he was at 3rd Ypres from July 1917 but not sure when he returned to England?

ALSO he had a daughter born in the November - 27/11/1917 so how did that happen unless my granma was a naughty girl!

SO NO HE WAS NOT IN ITALY . . . any light on any of this please?

[kevinrowlinson]

Number is 64530.

War office casualty list HA 14535, Scarlet fever severe, admitted 14 Stationary Hospital, Wimereux 28-9-1917, next of kin advised 9-10-1917

W0 cas list HB 8474, Sick admitted 3 Northern General Hospital, Sheffield, 21-10-1917

Date of will 24-3-1917

I believe 289th Siege Battery left Southampton 27-3-1917, and disembarked Le Havre 28-3-1917

Discharged 14-3-1918

Kevin

[ororkep]

Jenni,

“He volunteered in Oct 1915, and in the following year went to the Western front where he took part in several engagements. He served at Ypres, Vimy Ridge and Messines and on various other sectors of the front. Owning to ill-health contracted during his service he was discharged as medically unfit for further duty in March 1918. He holds the general service and Victory medals. 20 Glos Road Acton W3.”

source National Roll Great War Vol II-London

A original battery member, posted from 36 Coy which was at Fort Bovisand Plymouth. I can also confirm he would have gone out to the WF with 289 SB on 27-3-1917. He did not therefore embark with the Brigade or Battery to Italy in 24-11-1917 but would have been sent home from France on the 20-10-1917.

He is also a SWB recipient but I cannot read his number to check it on the faded service papers. Note there are two MIC cards for him on the NA site, one is the SWB card again and reaffirms he served with 289 SB.

As Kevin mentions 64530 is the CORRECT number and the only one you need concern yourself with; the other is a typical ancestry mistake.

Rgds Paul

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

Thanks for the establishment figures, they are very interesting and useful. Has anyone come across any good WW1 Artillery unit websites?

Regards

Stewart

[Jenni Birdseye]

Number is 64530.

War office casualty list HA 14535, Scarlet fever severe, admitted 14 Stationary Hospital, Wimereux 28-9-1917, next of kin advised 9-10-1917

W0 cas list HB 8474, Sick admitted 3 Northern General Hospital, Sheffield, 21-10-1917

Date of will 24-3-1917

I believe 289th Siege Battery left Southampton 27-3-1917, and disembarked Le Havre 28-3-1917

Discharged 14-3-1918

Kevin

[Jenni Birdseye]

You guys are brilliant - thanks for all the info Jenni

You guys are brilliant - thanks for all the info Jenni

[Jenni Birdseye]

OOPsy not sure if I am replying to right person here . . . anyway how do i get to look at WO95/325 on line as it look s like I have to go there in person to find out more about their whereabouts on any given day?

Thanks once again - Jenni

[Ron Clifton]

Jenni

You can't look at the War Diary online (yet - they are making infantry battalion diaries their priority) but you should be able to order a photocopy online or, if it is easy for you to get to Kew, go there and copy out the bits you want.

From the date of embarkation given by Paul, and the fact that soldiers usually got at least some chance of home leave before going abroad, I think you can probably absolve your granna from being a naughty girl! It may also be significant that he made his will on 3 March although this too was a normal step prior to going abroad.

Ron

[Jenni Birdseye]

Cheers Ron will try & get info via photocopy on line. The reason why I was confused re dates & grandads second child's birth date was according to his records he was at Vimy Ridge which was April 1916. I had assumed he stayed out on the WF until Paul mentioned his embarkation date of March 1917 so . . . where was he posted after Vimy Ridge & how do I find that out? Maybe when I get the diaries of his 289 seige battery then all will be revealed?

Anyway, once again for speedy response - can't keep up with you all . . . Jenni

[ororkep]

Jenni,

The Vimy mentioned is NOT the 1916 battle but a general battery positional reference. The Ypres is Third Ypres.

At the top left of the second page of his service records, albeit very feint, is written

France 27-3-17 to 20-10-17

These are the dates he served abroad, and the first date ties in with the official embarkation date for 289 SB.

James was NOT abroad in 1916.

The war diary will not really offer you any extra information than you already know, and unfortunately he is not mentioned. It is a poor diary and more a record of rounds fired with map coordinates. At about 30 pages worth it should not cost over £30.

Rgds Paul

[Jenni Birdseye]

Jenni,

The Vimy mentioned is NOT the 1916 battle but a general battery positional reference. The Ypres is Third Ypres.

At the top left of the second page of his service records, albeit very feint, is written

France 27-3-17 to 20-10-17

These are the dates he served abroad, and the first date ties in with the official embarkation date for 289 SB.

James was NOT abroad in 1916.

The war diary will not really offer you any extra information than you already know, and unfortunately he is not mentioned. It is a poor diary and more a record of rounds fired with map coordinates. At about 30 pages worth it should not cost over £30.

Rgds Paul

[Jenni Birdseye]

Paul - that clears up an awful lot methinks & now makes sense with my trip to the Battlefields coming up in October. At least I won't have the task of searching for his grave which must be quite a moving experience for many families that do this research. I have found it fascinating & I am in total awe of your (& others) ability to find out as much as you do with great efficiency so thank you once again - Jenni

ps. having sung your (FORUM) praises to friends & family, they have asked if you were given a WW1 name along with his rank/regiment would you be able to uncover pretty much what we have found out about my Grandad?