mcderms Posted 18 April , 2004 Share Posted 18 April , 2004 I am trying to find out a bit more about the front line medical services during 1916, particulalry the stretcher bearers. Can anyone point me at a good book or other source for this? I have 'Roses Of No Mans Land' but that's it at the moment. I am particulalry interested to know how these men came to be SBs, whether they were part of the RAMC of a regt and when and why they joined. For example did the Pals have some of their non-combatant or CO mates as SBs? Thanks in advance as always guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 18 April , 2004 Share Posted 18 April , 2004 The Long Carry by Frank Dunham is THE book you need. Accept no substitutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcderms Posted 18 April , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2004 Any idea where I can get a copy of this book? ebay and abebooks don't seem to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 18 April , 2004 Share Posted 18 April , 2004 Mcderms, You might also want to try looking at War establishments, Field Service Manuals and RAMC training manuals. Using Infantry as an example. Per the 1914 WE there were 16 men detailed as SB's. None were RAMC. The 16 would come from the break-up of the band on mobilization. There would also be two MO Orderlies assigned from the Infantry. In addition there were attached 6 RAMC presonnel. None were SB's. This organization held for the revised 1915 WE. By the 1918 WE's there were 4 SB's at Battalion HQ and 4 in each Company. The RAMC personnel had been reduced to two. None of the SB's were RAMC. The 1918 orgainization was instituted as early late 16/17. "Organization of an Infantry Battalion and Normal Formation for the Attack" April 1917. Calls for 4 SBs at Battalion and potentially 4 SBs (at descretion of OC) at Company. All personnel were Infantry. Official Medical/First Aid Training for SBs was rudimentary. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MaryFM Posted 19 April , 2004 Share Posted 19 April , 2004 Hi Pergamon Press printed The Long Carry in 1970, hope that helps. Mary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 19 April , 2004 Share Posted 19 April , 2004 On the same theme, I am attempting to discover more about the roles and responsibilities of those RAMC men who were officially attached to battalions. I have a Military Medal group to an RAMC Corporal who was attached to the 9th King's Liverpool Regiment and I am finding it difficult to learn mre about him personally so I want to know more about the sort of things he would have done. It appears that he went to France with the battalion in March 1915 and would have been one of the team assisting the battalion medical officer in his duties. Can anyone give me any sources for further information? I will search for his records at the PRO when I finally get the opportunity to visit (I only wish he wasn't called Brown!), but would welcome any advice. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 April , 2004 Share Posted 20 April , 2004 Ken, Try "Royal Army Medical Corps Training, 1911". There are usually a few copies on any given Book web search. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 20 April , 2004 Share Posted 20 April , 2004 Thanks Joe, I have a copy of the "Manual for the Royal Army Medical Corps 1904", but that is a training manual and doesn't give any organisational details. Is the book you recommend likely to be an updated version of the one I have? Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Hollington Posted 20 April , 2004 Share Posted 20 April , 2004 You might get some information from the RAMC's museum. The Curator AMS Museum Keogh Barracks Ash Vale Aldershot GU12 5RQ Tel: 01252 340320 A fairly small museum (well it was when as a recruit we used to be made to spend the occasional afternoon there) but perfectly formed. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 20 April , 2004 Share Posted 20 April , 2004 Thanks Ali, I have written to them today. I will add any useful response to this thread. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 20 April , 2004 Share Posted 20 April , 2004 Ken, The RAMC Training 1911 does give a bit of procedural info. If your looking for organizational details I would suggest trying to find copies of the War Establishments. Unfortunately, these seem to be fairly rare. These will give Organizational details of Field Ambulances and all other units and from where personnel should come from and mostly what their function was. 1914 WE pt 1 for a Field Ambulance lists three sections: Each section had a Bearer subdivison of 36 Stretcher Bearers formed into 6 Teams. These were the RAMC Stretcher Bearers and were not attached to other units. The Infantry battalion in 1914 had 16 Bearers, all Infantry men. There were also 6 RAMC personnel attached, including MO and 5 Other Ranks which assisted the MO--mostly at the RAP but could be found forward. The 5 RAMC personnel also included those assigned Water duties. The MO also had two assigned Infantry Orderlies one of whom drove the Maltese Cart. You might also want to try the Field Service Regulations, 1909 Part II and The Field Service Pocket Book 1914 (reprinted by N&MP). Generally from these documents Regimental Stretcher Bearers (that is non RAMC) would be responsible for bearing wounded as far as the RAP. The Field Ambulance Bearers, RAMC, would then be responsible from the RAP to ADS or direct to MDS. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Thanks again, Joe. Would it be fair to assume then, that a Cpl, RAMC attached to an infantry battalion would be one of the five men assigned to assist the Bn. MO? Would the Cpl have been the only NCO in that team, directly responsible to the MO? I will look at the references you mention. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Ken, Actually, the WE 14 anyway, states that of the 5 RAMC ORs one would be a Corporal. The only NCO. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 don't forget the sanitary men [lavatory men, bog cleaners] and those attached for the mysterious "water duties" The band was broken up to use as Stretcher Bearers, SB brassard, whereas RAMC Fd Amb bearers had Red Cross brassard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Joe & LB, I haven't seen the War Establshments, but I'll keep my eyes open in the future. Where might be the best place to look? I have a couple of 1914 Field Service Pocket Books and they give the following: Under the heading 'Sanitation': "The field sanitation of units is under regimental control. The unit provides 1 NCO and men according to the strength of the unit, for sanitary duties (See F.S. Manual for the various arms). These men supervise the cookhouse, ablution places, latrines, &c., and act as sanitary police. The RAMC provide a NCO and men, as laid down in W.E., for water duties. These men receive special instruction in their duties, and will be concerned with the purification of water; they may if circumstances permit, be employed on duties in connection with disinfection and with the care of the sick. They have charge of the water carts and of any apparatus or chemicals that may be issued for the sterilisation of water." Under the heading 'Disposal of Casualties' it says: "A wounded man is generally first attended to by the MO with his unit and (unless able to walk) is carried back by the regimental stretcher bearers to the regimental aid post...." I would compare this information with that in the Field Service Regulations, but I only have Part 1 and not Part 2. Can anyone tell me what FSR gives for this subject? I am still unsure whether the RAMC sanitation men are completely separate to the medical team under the MO. So, my Cpl could be the man who was in charge of the medical support team working to the MO, or the one in charge of the sanitation team. If he was the former, where could I find out what training/skills he would have had? I assume that he would have some medical training, for dressings, treating minor ailments etc. Would this RAMC contingent have been included on the ration strength of the battalion? I don't suppose that they would have been on the trench strength as their role in either case should have kept them behind the lines. Thanks again, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 April , 2004 Share Posted 22 April , 2004 certainly on the rat. strength ..... part of mobilized battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertb Posted 27 April , 2004 Share Posted 27 April , 2004 Hi, If its the roles of the RAMC in the war you want then one of the best starting places are the official histories of the medical services in the war. The following should help: MacPherson, W.G. Official History of the War - Medical Services - General History, Volumes I - IV, HMSO 1921-1923. MacPherson, W.G. Official History of the War - Medical Services - Hygiene of the War, Volumes I - II, HMSO 1923. MacPherson, W.G. Official History of the War - Medical Services - Surgery of the War, Volumes I - II, HMSO, 1923. Mitchell, T.J. & Smith, G.M. Official History of the War - Medical Services - Casualties and Medical Statistics, HMSO, 1931. This has beeen republished in 1997, ISBN 0-89839-263-2 Also try: Whitehead, I.R. Doctors in the Great War. Leo Cooper, 1999 - ISBN 0-85052-691-4 Hope this helps? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 1 May , 2004 Share Posted 1 May , 2004 Thanks for those references, Rob. I have had a reply from the RAMC Historian today and he says: "The Regimental Medical Officer would have a small staff of a sergeant or corporal plus two or three other ranks. When in camp he would operate from the camp reception station, but in action would set up his Regimental Aid Posts in a cellar, a dug out in a trench, or a convenient shell hole. His stretcher bearers were the members of the regimental band." He went on to say that no war diaries are held at the Army Medical Services Museum. The response from the RAMC Historian, R L Barrett-Cross, was quite detailed and included background information. There is no charge for the information supplied but I think a donation to Museum funds is appropriate. Regards, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 2 May , 2004 Share Posted 2 May , 2004 The Long Carry by Frank Dunham is THE book you need. Accept no substitutes. I'll second that. It is also one of the best accounts by a man with the 47th Division and London Regiment. More details in case you have had trouble finding it, as FD may not be listed as the author: The Long Carry, the war diary of stretcher bearer Frank Dunham 1916-1918" edited by RH Haigh and PW Turner with a foreward by Corelli Barnett pub Pergamon Press 1970 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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