navyman Posted 24 May , 2009 Share Posted 24 May , 2009 Hello all, I suspect that this 'WW1 German trench knife' may be a fake. Marked on one side ; underlined D, and the other; GOTTLIEB HAMMESFAHR SOLIGEN FOCHE I Paid £39.00 for it. The advert described it as; WW1 pattern Imperial German trench knife with grooved handle, single edged blade with German markings, metal sheath with leather straps. It looks and feels right, leather supple, but I'm suspicious as this came from the same source as some badges and insignia which turned out to be repro's. I don't mind having repro's in my collection but want them cataloged as such. Any ideas, is the clue in the word 'pattern', this may be one for Ade? Cheers, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droocoo Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 I can't tell you whether it is real or not, however if it looks and feels right, it possibly is. The weight probably has to be considerable in such a piece, due to the amount of force needed in close quarters fighting. Having the markings, it seems to look genuine. Are they impressed or hand done? Could give you some clues. just trying to help Droocoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droocoo Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 there is currently a thread going on at the moment devoted to trench knive, clubs etc. Pgt is running it. I found out that Grabenolch is indeed the German specification for a trench knife, as marked on your piece. the thread is called Specific trench tools you might find some experts there willing to help.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Not my area of specialisation, Groger, but Gottlieb Hammesfahr of Solingen-Foche (a district of Solingen, the Sheffield of Germany) was certainly a maker of military knives. As with other items of durable military hardware, there may be two levels of authenticity to consider – is it indeed a knife of the stated pattern, made by the claimed manufacturer; and, if it is, was it made before, during or after the Great War? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 again this is an item sold as 'WW1 pattern' it could mean anything. There are certainly a lot of them around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torrey McLean Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hello, Groger - Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are right to be suspicious. This type of trench knife is the most commonly encountered fake/reproduction here in the USA. You need to show it to some knowledgeable collector who can actually examine it and tell you what you have. Regards, Torrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hi, I have several originals, also the one You shows. On my piece the letters of Hammesfahr...are all the same size which is not the case in the one You shows, the small leather band around the grip is not the correct one, on the other side of the blade, there has to be a small proof mark Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 25 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hello, Groger - Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are right to be suspicious. This type of trench knife is the most commonly encountered fake/reproduction here in the USA. You need to show it to some knowledgeable collector who can actually examine it and tell you what you have. Regards, Torrey Thank you all for your help, The knife has neat markings which are definitely not hand stamped. As an ex serviceman it smells of armoury, if you know what I mean. As I mentioned, my suspicions were only aroused when I was told that some items sold to me from this particular source were fakes. I was also told that they sell a lot of genuine things as well. I've spent quite a lot of money with them over the last 10 years (+?), and am now going through all the old invoices trying to work out which ones are 'right'. I'm happy with repro's as a stopgap until I can afford the real thing but wish they would make it clear on their site? It weighs 10 and a quarter ounces with scabbard, and 7 and a quarter ounces without. I've found a mark on the scabbard stud and, hopefully, attach pics. Thanks again, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 25 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hi, I have several originals, also the one You shows. On my piece the letters of Hammesfahr...are all the same size which is not the case in the one You shows, the small leather band around the grip is not the correct one, on the other side of the blade, there has to be a small proof mark Regards, Cnock Hello Cnock, Thanks for your interest. Have you a picture of a genuine one so I can compare it with mine? Regards, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hi, the letters are not placed in a straight line, the leather band around the grip, can You show the other side of the button? Regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 the original mark Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Proof mark Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcjgscott Posted 25 May , 2009 Share Posted 25 May , 2009 Hi all, I'm still finding my feet on this board, and don't want to break any rules- but I would guess that this knife was bought from a company called W**** W*** A*** and if that is the case, then I'm afraid the knife is a modern reproduction. The phrase "Caveat Emptor" could have been made to describe thier wares, and I would advise extreme caution unless you can handle the item in person and be 100% satisfied of its authenticity before you part with your hard earned. The wording of thier catalogue is filled with words like "Type" "Pattern" etc, which can easily decieve. If its too good to be true, it probably is.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 May , 2009 Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hello A first remark: if this "trench-knife" is a real one -- BE VERY VERY HAPPY -- 39£ is rather CHEAP ! Well -- probably it is not Obviously -- you may currently find many "repro" (or "fake") WW1 trench-knives everywhere incl. on the web, many of them like this one. I know an indian supplier, but probably chinese firms do the same... An example No idea if giving such links is OK with the forum rules and policy... Anyway --- this illustrates a couple of commonly found "fakes" of WW1 trench knives This one below is similar to yours... with same markings http://collections.delcampe.fr/page/item/i...language,F.html 50 euros If the link is trucated, just try http://collections.delcampe.fr and look for key-word "tranchée" (in french...) One may usually find this "repro" for less than 40 euros on german sites Like here below http://www.aus-omas-truhe.de/aot2/action-d...-weltkrieg.html 32 euros Correctly advertized as a copy... It happens that you also find smart guys who "omit" mentionning that it is "repro" and take a chance Probably like this one below... http://collections.delcampe.fr/page/item/i...language,F.html Oooops -- for sale -- 260 euros -- but very probably same as other "repro", sold by same seller Probably from same indian supplier --> this sort of "fake" below duplicates a famous "DEMAG", a famous trench knife / bayonet combination... http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2263899 Sold at 38 euros This one below probably is an original DEMAG one http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2281550 Sold at 240 euros -- expensive -- but well DEMAG now are somewhat hard to find... Hope this helps If a "fake" -------- BE HAPPY ANYWAY --> it was cheap and the steel scabbard may be used to dress-up a real one obtained w/o a scabbard ! A+ BTW -- if links do not works -- just tell me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Proof mark Cnock Hello cnock, Here is the pic of the other side of the button. I've also added one of the proof mark as I noticed that the marks are on opposite sides of the blade compared to your original? Hope this helps, Best regards, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hi all, I'm still finding my feet on this board, and don't want to break any rules- but I would guess that this knife was bought from a company called W**** W*** A*** and if that is the case, then I'm afraid the knife is a modern reproduction. The phrase "Caveat Emptor" could have been made to describe thier wares, and I would advise extreme caution unless you can handle the item in person and be 100% satisfied of its authenticity before you part with your hard earned. The wording of thier catalogue is filled with words like "Type" "Pattern" etc, which can easily decieve. If its too good to be true, it probably is.... Chris Chris, Your guess is correct, I'm afraid I shall have to research a great deal of my collection again, shame as I was getting close to finishing the long process of cataloging every thing. Best regards, Very miffed, groger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hello A first remark: if this "trench-knife" is a real one -- BE VERY VERY HAPPY -- 39£ is rather CHEAP ! Well -- probably it is not Obviously -- you may currently find many "repro" (or "fake") WW1 trench-knives everywhere incl. on the web, many of them like this one. I know an indian supplier, but probably chinese firms do the same... An example No idea if giving such links is OK with the forum rules and policy... Anyway --- this illustrates a couple of commonly found "fakes" of WW1 trench knives This one below is similar to yours... with same markings http://collections.delcampe.fr/page/item/i...language,F.html 50 euros If the link is trucated, just try http://collections.delcampe.fr and look for key-word "tranchée" (in french...) One may usually find this "repro" for less than 40 euros on german sites Like here below http://www.aus-omas-truhe.de/aot2/action-d...-weltkrieg.html 32 euros Correctly advertized as a copy... It happens that you also find smart guys who "omit" mentionning that it is "repro" and take a chance Probably like this one below... http://collections.delcampe.fr/page/item/i...language,F.html Oooops -- for sale -- 260 euros -- but very probably same as other "repro", sold by same seller Probably from same indian supplier --> this sort of "fake" below duplicates a famous "DEMAG", a famous trench knife / bayonet combination... http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2263899 Sold at 38 euros This one below probably is an original DEMAG one http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2281550 Sold at 240 euros -- expensive -- but well DEMAG now are somewhat hard to find... Hope this helps If a "fake" -------- BE HAPPY ANYWAY --> it was cheap and the steel scabbard may be used to dress-up a real one obtained w/o a scabbard ! A+ BTW -- if links do not works -- just tell me PQT, Thanks for all those links, I'll go through them carefully and see if II can learn from this experience. Wish I'd found this site about ten years ago, would have saved a lot of money! All best, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 26 May , 2009 Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hi, not an original proof mark Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navyman Posted 26 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hi, not an original proof mark Cnock Thanks cnock, Starting to count my losses! Cheers, groger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 26 May , 2009 Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Dear Groger, we all do some time Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcjgscott Posted 26 May , 2009 Share Posted 26 May , 2009 Hello Groger, Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But better you find out now, than in a few years time. As Cnock says, we all make mistakes sometimes. The important thing is to learn from them. I've not been a member here very long, but from what i've read, its a good place to learn from, and ask questions. Kind regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 27 May , 2009 Share Posted 27 May , 2009 Hello, some originals, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Interestingly I have just checked out German Military Fighting Knives 1914 - 1945. The knife shown as being in John Angolias collection is clearly marked Gottlieb Hannesfahr Solingen Foohe. Which doesn't make sense, but I have also come across one other while searching the net. Personaly I wouldn't doubt the authenticity of Angolias eaxample. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Also looking at other blades, razors made by this company also have the spelling Foohe. Perhaps this is the original spelling the company used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 June , 2009 Share Posted 17 June , 2009 Hello, some originals, Cnock Hello In this picture, you show 2 DEMAG "aufplanzbar Grabendolch", i.e. "a trench knife which may be attached to the rifle"; the ones with the crank handle The one on the left has a very small crossguard w/o any form of muzzle ring and such trench knives were not appreciated for current use because, if used as a trench knife, there was no protection for the hand Do you think this one is "late war production" or has been modified or is it genuine DEMAG or what ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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