enfield

[museumtom]

This is a disagreement between myself and the guy who does all my research for me at Kew. the question is................did Percy Toplis really exist of was he a figment of Alan Bleasdales fertile imagination?

Tom.

[CROONAERT]

Yes, he existed allright. Not quite the "Monacled Mutineer" character of Bleasdales's drama, but a photo of him mascarading as an officer exists (I think that there was a framed one at Penrith(?) police station and his grave can be visited and burial details seen at Penrith cemetery.

Dave.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Definitely existed. However Bleasdale's imagination ran riot on the Etaples mutiny.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Percy Toplis did indeed exist - he served in Salonika in the RAMC if I recall correctly. But he was not part of the Etaples Mutiny.

Ian

[mcderms]

Perce is one of my favourite topics...

He was born in/near Mansfield, Notts and was a local petty criminal who turned to crime after a very short stint in the coal mines. The local boozer is named after him now and he's on the sign! He enlisted in the RAMC and is believed to have been at a CCS at Loos. After this he deserted and turned up at home dressed in an officers (2nd lt) uniform. Percy then spent a while passing dud cheques before turning up in the Med (he visited a friend in hospital in Malta I think dressed as an officer). He said he was on his way to Palestine but was most likely being shipped to Salonika after re-enlisting.

The official record then goes quite until after the war but there is a a lot of albeit circumstantial evidence putting him at Etaples in 1917. A lot of deserters hid out in the woods around the town as they could slip in and out for supplies unnoticed and maybe sneak onto a ship for England. However, he must have been up to something as from 1919 until 1922 the Secret Services took an uncommon interest in the man. He was chased all the way to Scotland where fear of capture saw him shoot a gamekeeper dead. He then escaped to Cumbria but was shot there in bizarre circumstances by local police. He probably did lose his marbles at some stage due to the pressure of being on the run.

Was he at Etaples? Does he deserved to be called the Monocled Mutineer? I did my A Level dissertation on Percy and believe him to be an essentially vain glory seeker who disliked hard work and would risk prison for easy money. This is another 'locked files hold the answer' job so we'll have to wait and see!

Let me know if you'd like anymore and I'll see if my research materials still exist in the parental loft. BTW his enlistment records went up in smoke during the blitz so I am not sure how much else is left.

[museumtom]

Many thanks guys,I have enough information now.

regards.

Tom.

[Stuart Brown]

Years ago a police colleague with similar interests mentioned to me that he had actually seen the relevant "Wanted Person circulation" in respect of Topliss in the Police Gazette which was a weekly gazette sent to all UK police forces. Needless to say it had been found in the archives.

The recent posting on this subject reminded me of the above fact, and , although it is not the original format have a look here

You will see that:-

"For murder of a taxi-cab driver - Francis Edmunson, aliases Percy Francis, Bennison, Wiliam Wilson, Jones, Topley, Taylor and Pte. Percy Francis Toplis.

Reg.No. E.M.T. 54262, M.T. R.A.S.C., Bulford Camp, C.R.O. No. S/139484, age 24 (looks older), 5ft 7in., c. fresh, h. lt. brown, slight fair ginger moustache (may now be clean shaven), e. blue, fair eyebrows, mole under chin, scar back rt. hand, believed 2 teeth missing front upper jaw, and bottom teeth false, medium build."

The page is headed "The Monocled Mutineer - never been caught! " why that is I do not know.

There are other differences ie murder of a taxi driver and not a game keeper, service details "Reg.No. E.M.T. 54262, M.T. R.A.S.C" not RAMC.

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this page but I do know that such an item existed in The Police Gazette and this page is from the police museum of the same force of the colleague I refer to.

Added for information.

Stuart

P.S. The museum in question has now closed down so how long this page will be available is not known.

[Brigantian]

Whilst researching a local cemetery I came across the below article concerning Percy Topliss in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph of Monday 2nd December 1918.

I recalled this thread and thought it might be of interest:

WANTED AT MANSFIELD

Percy Francis Toplis alias Williams (30) was charged at the Nottingham Shire Hall on Saturday with obtaining a gold bracelet watch by fraud at Hucknall.

It was stated that the prisoner called at Mr Tweed’s jewellers shop in High Street dressed as an officer of the ASC, selected a watch value £8 17s 6d and made out a cheque for £9, observing that the extra half-crown was the hall mark of a gentleman. The cheque was retuned “No account” and the book from which it had been taken belonged to a London officer.

The Deputy Chief Constable said prisoner was a Derbyshire miner and had deserted from the RAMC at Salonika in June. In addition to this charge he was wanted on a charge of obtaining £10 by false pretences at Mansfield Woodhouse in September.

Prisoner, who said he was an absentee and not a deserter, was sent to gaol for six months.

Mark

[Nick Cooper]

This is a disagreement between myself and the guy who does all my research for me at Kew. the question is................did Percy Toplis really exist of was he a figment of Alan Bleasdales fertile imagination?

Tom.

Bleasdale's 1986 script was based on the earlier (1979?) book 'The Monocled Mutineer' by William Allison & John Fairley. It's a long time since I watched the former and even longer since I read the latter, but the best way to put is that yes, there was an officer-impersonating deserter and petty-criminal named Percy Toplis; and yes, there was a mutiny at the Etaples training camp in 1917. Whether the two are actually connected is another matter.

IIRC, Allison & Fairley were researching the Toplis story, in the course of which they came across the previously-suppressed history of the Mutiny. Some witnesses placed Toplis at Etaples at the time, but the TV production notably does not show Toplis as being as instrumental as people now think (or even as the title suggests!). In addition, Bleasdale depicts Toplis as a protagonist in situations that the book clearly attributes as experiences of others (e.g. the execution of the ex-officer was witnessed by a subsequently famous musician, the name of whom escapes me at the moment). In itself, however, this is probably an "accusation" we could level at pretty much every famous war film ever made. 'The Great Escape', 'The Longest Day' and 'A Bridge Too Far' similarly have the actions of several people "distilled" into one, regardless of whether the latter is a real person in their own right or not.

As mcderms suggests, Toplis was certainly unravelling towards the end, not least because he had been found guilty in his absence of murder by an inquest jury (a verdict that can no longer be delivered). In actual fact, the only witness to the murder was Toplis's accomplice, who turned King's Evidence against him, even though on paper he seems the more likely suspect. This murder was of the taxi driver Stuart mentioned; while he did shoot at several gamekeepers in another incident, no-one was killed. However, the verdict effectively declared him an outlaw who could be shot on sight, so it wouldn't be surprising if he thought he no longer had anything to lose. In fact, there are many question-marks over the circumstances of his subsequent death, notably whether he was really given any opportunity to give himself up, and who actually fired the shot that killed him.

[trenchwalker]

Yes, he existed allright. Not quite the "Monacled Mutineer" character of Bleasdales's drama, but a photo of him mascarading as an officer exists (I think that there was a framed one at Penrith(?) police station and his grave can be visited and burial details seen at Penrith cemetery.

Dave.

here is that photo

[trenchwalker]

and another

[Moonraker]

Bleasdale's 1986 script was based on the earlier (1979?) book 'The Monocled Mutineer' by William Allison & John Fairley.  It's a long time since I watched the former and even longer since I read the latter, but the best way to put is that yes, there was an officer-impersonating deserter and petty-criminal named Percy Toplis; and yes, there was a mutiny at the Etaples training camp in 1917.  Whether the two are actually connected is another matter.

IIRC, Allison & Fairley were researching the Toplis story, in the course of which they came across the previously-suppressed history of the Mutiny.  Some witnesses placed Toplis at Etaples at the time, but the TV production notably does not show Toplis as being as instrumental as people now think (or even as the title suggests!).  In addition, Bleasdale depicts Toplis as a protagonist in situations that the book clearly attributes as experiences of others (e.g. the execution of the ex-officer was witnessed by a subsequently famous musician, the name of whom escapes me at the moment).  .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very belated response to the above, but only because I'm now re-reading "The Monocled Mutineer". The "musician" was Victor Sylvester, later a dance orchestra leader, who ran away to the war from boarding school at 14. While at Etaples his being a first-class marksman led to him being nominated for five firing squads, though the book doesn't mention any of the executed being ex-officers. After the fifth "I was screaming in my sleep and physically ill every day. I was put into a hospital and strapped down to the bed to prevent me running away." He had "the mental scars that Etaples left ... for the rest of my life".

[BeppoSapone]

Very belated response to the above, but only because I'm now re-reading "The Monocled Mutineer". The "musician" was Victor Sylvester, later a dance orchestra leader, who ran away to the war from boarding school at 14. While at Etaples his being a first-class marksman led to him being nominated for five firing squads, though the book doesn't mention any of the executed being ex-officers. After the fifth "I was screaming in my sleep and physically ill every day. I was put into a hospital and strapped down to the bed to prevent me running away." He had "the mental scars that Etaples left ... for the rest of my life".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't I read a report that said that, despite his claims, Victor Sylvester couldn't possibly have done this?

[Andrew Hesketh]

'Blindfold & Alone' also points out the dubious accuracy of Sylvester.

[Guest]

Also see:

http://www.hants.gov.uk/hchs/fcases.html