Single barreled Villar- Perosa sub machine gun

[centurion]

Some time we had a discussion on the Bergman sub machine gun and whether it was the first. I (and if I remember correctly some others) suggested the Villar-Perosa sub machine gun as there were reports of it being used by Italian infantry some time before the introduction of the Bergman in the German army. There was a majority opinion that this twin barreled sub machine gun was too cumbersome for use in this role.

I recently acquired (in a sale - got a two thirds reduction) a copy of Flying Guns World War I by Williams and Gustin. In it the Villar-Perosa is covered. It states that as each gun in the twin configuration operated completely independently, for infantry use the guns were split and stocks and pistol grips added producing single barreled sub machine guns. Such a weapon would certainly be a credible infantry weapon. Unfortunately there is no photo in the book of the single barreled version. Has anyone seen one?

[Ghost]

Do you mean the infantry version of this Villar Perosa 1

which looks like this, Infantry using Villar Perosa.

Then maybe this link will find you a better picture and more varied selection of guns. Villar Perosa guns

Alan

[centurion]

Yes and which was clearly small and light enough (without the shield) to be used as a sub machine gun

[TonyE]

Unfortunately I have not seen one in the flesh, although I am sure I have seen a picture somewhere, but it was not the one on the site Ghost posted.

I do not think there is one at the Pattern Room (sorry - National Firearms Collection) although of course they have the normal double gun. More of interest they have a double VP but in .455 Webley SL calibre. There is no record of the British teating the gun and the whys and wheres of it are completely unknown.

A guy I know in the US has a beautiful VP in its transit chest complete with spares and tools. I had the privilege to fire it some years ago, but a full magazine only lasts about 1.5 seconds!

I will check with Leeds though, just in case.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Unfortunately I have not seen one in the flesh, but I am sure I have seen a picture somewhere - if only I could remember where!

I do not think there is one at the Pattern Room (sorry - National Firearms Collection) although of course they have the normal double gun. More of interest they have a double VP but in .455 Webley SL calibre. There is no record of the British teating the gun and the whys and wheres of it are completely unknown.

A guy I know in the US has a beautiful VP in its transit chest complete with spares and tools. I had the privilege to fire it some years ago, but a full magazine only lasts about 1.5 seconds!

I will check with Leeds though, just in case.

Regards

TonyE

Thanks - given that the book I quote was written with the active cooperation of the Pattern Room (their words) and contains no photo other than the twin version I suspect that there isn't one at that source. There is a photo of the Swiss Flieger Dopelpistole along side a VP - it looks much lighter and smaller than the VP - but just too late for WW1

[TonyE]

Centurion - I checked with them this afternoon and they DO have a Villa Perosa SMG. I probably never took much notice of it on my visits as I tend to mainly look at the British stuff.

Next time I am there, which should be in the next couple of months I will take some pictures for you.

Regards

TonyE

[Dan Brock]

Here's something to look at while awaiting better pics from Tony:

Scanned from "Weapon A Visual History of Arms and Armor", a Dorling-Kindersley book.

Dan Brock

[Garron]

The HGM in Vienna has the double barreled version, the single barrel type must have been unusual as I've read very little reference material on it, they must seem to over look it.

1.5 seconds, must have taken longer to reload than fire.

Gaz

[centurion]

The 'double barreled' version wasn't really double barreled - it was two single barreled guns clamped side by side. Just remove the clamping, add a stock and hey presto you've got a normal sub machine gun as in Dan's picture. The Bergman wasn't the first after all.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The date in post #7 is the 1920s, isn't that post WWI? Is there evidence that it was used in this configeration in WWI?

[Gunner Bailey]

The 'double barreled' version wasn't really double barreled - it was two single barreled guns clamped side by side. Just remove the clamping, add a stock and hey presto you've got a normal sub machine gun as in Dan's picture. The Bergman wasn't the first after all.

The point is Centurion, is that if they didn't actually, and I use your words 'Just remove the clamping, add a stock and hey presto you've got a normal sub machine gun as in Dan's picture', until post WW1 then the Bergman was the first real SMG to see action in said conflict. Without you producing a photo of the alleged conversion during WW1, your theory falls apart.

The existence of Villar Perosa SMG's in museums does not prove they were in that configuration in WW1.

[centurion]

As there is an historical record of the issue of the Beretta model 1918 sub machines gun (effectively a single barrel VP with a stock) to Italian regiments some weeks before the Bergman was issued to the German army and this is covered in a recent thread I don't need to answer your somewhat crude challenge.

[green_acorn]

From Machine Guns and the Great War by Paul Cornish, Pen & Sword, page 94-95:

In 1917 further impetus was given to the development of suitable tactics for the Villar Perosa by the creation of the Reparti d' Assalto - the Arditi - a force of elite assault troops. The Arditi seized upon the Villar Perosa as a potential provider of firepower in the assault. To facilitate this, alternative mounts were developed for the weapon: first, a sort of tray which suppported the gun in front of the firer while advancing; secondly an improved, flexible bipod. Eventually a wooden stock with a rifle-style butt was fitted to some examples. Around 15,000 Villar Perosa were produced in total. Following the disastrous defeat at Caporetta in November 1917, the Italians also acquired 2,000 Lewis guns ........................

The shortcomings of the Villar Perosa led the Italian Army to request the Berreta arms company to look into the possibility of improving on the concept. The task was deputed to a young designer, Tullio Marengoni. He took a single Villar Perosa barrel and action and coupled it with a conventional wooden stock and triger mechanism to create the Beretta Moschetto M1918. This came in two forms - a semi automatic carbine and a submachine gun; the latter boasting two triggers, one for automatic fire and a second for single shots. The weapons was issued during 1918, ..............

So my reading of Paul's work suggests that the Arditi used a double barrel Villar Perosa with a stock during 1917, as a sub/light machine gun for the assault, and the weapon in post #7 from Dan is a Beretta Moschetto M1918.

Cheers,

Hendo

PS: I would highly recommend Paul's book, a good read.

[Gunner Bailey]

As there is an historical record of the issue of the Beretta model 1918 sub machines gun (effectively a single barrel VP with a stock) to Italian regiments some weeks before the Bergman was issued to the German army and this is covered in a recent thread I don't need to answer your somewhat crude challenge.

But it does mean that your earlier statements about the VP were wrong. It just took a while to get there. A Berretta is not a VP.

[robert_sfl]

The Italians used separate model designations, so we should as well and not call a Beretta model 1918 a converted VP. There was more to it than to just cut the pair apart and fit a wooden stock. They also received new designed trigger sections, sights and other refinements. A problem about most sources is that the VP, the OVP and the Beretta model 1918 are constantly mixed up.

One aspect of both the VP and Beretta has been puzzling me - the enormous rate of fire. From what I know, around 1500 rounds/minute per barrel. A complete magazine would provide a burst of approx. only 1 second. I dont think this has been reached on any issue SMG until today, probably it would not even be considered favorable.

[centurion]

But it does mean that your earlier statements about the VP were wrong. It just took a while to get there. A Berretta is not a VP.

No. Conversions were made in the field then Berretta were contracted to do them in their factory. Their guns were made up of VPs (which by then were called Fiats!) Cut it any way you like the Italians had an SMG in service before the Bergmann

[centurion]

The Italians used separate model designations, so we should as well and not call a Beretta model 1918 a converted VP. (many sources do) There was more to it than to just cut the pair apart and fit a wooden stock. They also received new designed trigger sections, sights and other refinements. (True I was simplifying for effect but the Beretta used about 90% VP components) A problem about most sources is that the VP, the OVP and the Beretta model 1918 are constantly mixed up.

One aspect of both the VP and Beretta has been puzzling me - the enormous rate of fire. From what I know, around 1500 rounds/minute per barrel. A complete magazine would provide a burst of approx. only 1 second. I dont think this has been reached on any issue SMG until today, probably it would not even be considered favorable.

The original Thompson could empty a magazine in 2 secs. I suspect some retarding mechanism was used.

[Gunner Bailey]

The Italians used separate model designations, so we should as well and not call a Beretta model 1918 a converted VP. There was more to it than to just cut the pair apart and fit a wooden stock. They also received new designed trigger sections, sights and other refinements. A problem about most sources is that the VP, the OVP and the Beretta model 1918 are constantly mixed up.

And that is what I believe Centurion is doing. Field conversions, unless held in museums or proof houses are not evidence of the VP being a stock fitted SMG.