badge and uniform experts please help

[Muerrisch]

The devil makes work for idle hands, so I began to wonder why so many 'brass' [actually 'gilding metal [GM]] skill-at-arms, appointment, etc. badges seem to be around, as opposed to their less flashy 'cloth' [officially worsted drab].

When SD was introduced 1902, almost all such badges were officially worsted except the Scout badge, and the RACD ledger confirms this. In 1907 there was a surge recorded by the RACD to replace some worsted with GM, probably because GM, surprisingly, were 1/2 to 1/3 the price of worsted. Both types figured side by side in the Priced Vocab, with worsted marked as obsolescent.

However, the Clothing Regs of 1914 have almost all to be worsted again, and the Priced Vocab of 1915 repeats this.

Given that the GM versions are more likely to have survived the ravages of time, but were only produced for such a short period [and never in enough quantity for the Service battalions], how can we explain the apparent preponderance of GM?

Please do a simple survey for me.

Look at your Great War uniforms and 'trade' badges, and count each category.

Also, look through your photos [sD only, not scarlet, and not hot weather]. Photos will be more useful than badge survivals as loose badges, of course.

For my part, I will comb through the half dozen sources I have, and see from the photos the proportion of 'brass' to 'cloth'.

As far as I know, this question has never been investigated, certainly not using the Forum.

Please help me to assemble the facts, and, if you know more background [not supposition!] please throw it in the ring.

[tocemma]

Hello Grumpy,

Just had a cursory look through my photographs and would offer the following....

The mix in my photos at least would seem to be 70% worsted to 30% GM. I would add that this is an overall figure and that this does not seem to be the case within certain trades which I detail below.

For example Signallers, I would say here the mix is 50-50 (in use these crossed flags in GM seem vulnerable to catching, bending etc)

Scouts, again around 50-50.

In the case of MG badges the majority seem to have been the GM versions. I understand that there was a problem with supply when these were introduced. This is borne out by the fact that I have had at least three 'home made' ie hand embroidered examples. I have a Lewis Gunner's badge worn by Private Stoneman of the 2nd Berkshire's. This is made from a piece of puttee and is a little crudely done to say the least, but it does reflect Pte Stoneman's pride in his qualification.

Musician, 100% GM in my photos at least. I think I have only ever seen one worsted example of this that I felt was Great War period and I've never had a worsted example attached to any of the many dozens of of tunics I've owned in my 40 years of collecting. I've had a few GM ones though.

In the case of Fitter's crossed hammer and pincers, about 90% GM in my collection. (The ones that aren't are almost without exception on KD uniforms anyway)

This is obviously a quick sample and not very scientific but it does reflect what I would have said if I was asked for a guess. It could also be affected by my collecting of photos too. I was always interested in the embroidered badges as they look so good in photos. I once owned a prize shooting badge in worsted, crossed rifles wreath and crown etc and it was magnificent.

I'm sure that there will be widely differing views on this subject though!

As to the survival rates, I am not surprised that many more GM versions have survived and this undoubtedly skews our perception of their use. I have on many occassions acquired worsted badges in amongst the uniform and effects of Great War soldiers. These are often in pretty poor condition having been removed from uniforms and then sitting in cigarette boxes for 80 years. The felt seems to be irresistable to all manner of bugs. Many of them have been in such poor condition that they are only worth keeping for interest and historical integrity of the groupings they are with.

Quite a lot of the worsted trade badges I have been shown over the years claimed to be WW1 are often older versions ie pre WW2 or WW2, but not Great War period. Those I know to be Great War vintage are quite distinctive and for the most part very well made.

Just a few random musings...I'll shut up now!

Regards

Tocemma

ps well done you for raising this one though

[Muerrisch]

TocEmma: very many thanks, just what was needed as a starter. Of course, some badges such as Geneva Cross were only worsted, but equally some were usually GM such as Scout.

I am now wading through Chambers, Carman et al. The bias is definitely worsted.

[Muerrisch]

My Photo trawl results

methodology: only counted one badge per person where a pair identical worn, excluded RND excluded RFC RAF, excluded 'Dominion'. Excluded all except SD. Excluded all definitely post-war. Excluded all where doubt as to material existed.

Chambers: GM 7, W 21

Carman dictionary uniform: GM nil, W 5

Westlake Army 1914: GM 1, W 2

Edwards and Langley: excluded, as deliberately selective to show an example of each, even the 'in wear' photos.

Any ideas for further search please?

Totals so far:

GM 8, W 28.

Will now extract from the Gamages advert and post.

[tocemma]

Hello Grumpy,

Not strictly on topic but thought they might be of interest to those likely to respond. I've just quickly scanned the following.

early stretcher bearers badge

 

and worsted scouts badge

 

Regards

Tocemma

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much. The SB was not for regulars, of course. You obviously have a nice collection: do you have Edwards and Langley [blush!] as a reference book? The worsted Scots badge never appeared on an official list, but Gamages sold one.

If you have any swaps, or wants, a PM would alert me.

Now, back to topic!

[squirrel]

Tocemma may have a point about worsted/felt badges being "left in tobacco tins for 80 years" and his comment about them being "irresistable to all manner of bugs" is spot on.

Dark, undisturbed places with a "meal" of a badge made from natural wool/cotton/felt are exactly what the insects look for and their larvae thrive on.

Clothes moth, White Shouldered House moth and Varied Carpet beetle in particular.

[Muerrisch]

I used to rely on squirrels to eat them before they did any damage. Not just study the b*****s!

Come on, Squirrel sir, look at your own badge and photo stuff and give us your view!

[squirrel]

Will do when I get home - Sorry! Used to work for Rentokil!

[Muerrisch]

no answer to that!

[squirrel]

Have examined my books and other sources and concur that something in the order of 75% of qualification and proficiency badges shown are in worsted.

[Andrew Upton]

Bit of the Devils Advocate here...

From using these badges in a living history context, I've always maintained the metal badges are better for field use (easily removed and replaced for laundering, trench raids, and rather hard wearing and durable), but for dress use if you've got them the worsted badges look nicer (and as they have to be sewn in place, less chance of needing them taken off every 5 minutes).

My point being, presumably the majority of pictures we're looking at are posed to some degree, and therefore the soldiers likely to be wearing their best? And if my point is correct, this could possibly skew the figures in favour of the worsted. I know it's unlikely as there's less chance of clear enough photographs surviving, but it would probably be more interesting to see whether the majority of badges under actual field were the worsted or metal variety...

In the case of MG badges the majority seem to have been the GM versions. I understand that there was a problem with supply when these were introduced. This is borne out by the fact that I have had at least three 'home made' ie hand embroidered examples. I have a Lewis Gunner's badge worn by Private Stoneman of the 2nd Berkshire's. This is made from a piece of puttee and is a little crudely done to say the least, but it does reflect Pte Stoneman's pride in his qualification.

Tocemma, I would be very interested to see those badges, haven't ever heard of something quite like that before!

[Muerrisch]

I have the most amazingly crudely made scouts badge .... someone's labour of love in the trenches I think.

Interestingly [and I have just about every original source ..... primary, not secondary ....] the ONLY period when GM badges were sanctioned except for a few rare 'skills' is from 1907 to a date before 1914.

So where did they all come from?

I think many were private purchase, Gamages catalogue 1916 lists many GM for sale.

[Muerrisch]

You uniform collectors: please let me know what you have on SD sleeves: GM or Worsted survivals

[T8HANTS]

I am going to completely disagree with Andrew. On my uniform I used to wear a GM marksmans badge, which I won fair and square shooting the Empire Test years ago.

The b****y thing was a complete nuisance getting caught on the flaps of bell tents when walking in and out, and just about any thing it could find to catch on, it did. No matter how cunningly you bent the thing so it sat flat, it would get caught. I even tried wearing it on a patch so if it did get torn off the patch would go before my expensive sleeve. Why they were ever considered for service dress beats me.

Gareth

[Muerrisch]

Joe Sweeney come in please!

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,

Sorry for the late reply--been on duty and away from a computer.

Did a quick count of what's mounted on my uniforms.

Crossed Flags

1 W

1 GM

Hammer and Pincers crossed

1W

Mortarmans badge

1W

Crossed Rifles

1GM.

Machinegun Badge

1W

Tank

1W

Oddball badge (Petty Officer Telegraphist--If I'm interpreting badge correctly--RND)

1W

Most tend to be worsted and as Tocemma said very well made.

I also went through my postcards and without actually counting most appeared to be worsted although by no means all. The crossed rifles all seemed to be GM. I was also surprised that quite a lot of the wound badges actually appeared to be the original Russian braid and not the commercial brass.

Somewher I have an EFC price list that, if I rmember correctly, had brass commercial versions of most badges for sale-it would have been easy to pick a brass version.

Joe Sweeney

[tocemma]

Hello Grumpy,

This photo may be of interest. Shown is 15864, Corporal Nathan Lythgoe of 'B' Coy, 13th Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers. He is wearing a worsted drummers badge on each sleeve.

 

Sadly Corporal Lythgoe died of wounds on the 20th January 1916 at the age of 25. He is buried in Chocques Military Cemetery near Bethune.

RIP

Regards

Tocemma

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[tocemma]

And another...

Sergeant J W Scott S.I.M., 2/16th Battalion, The London Regiment (Queens Westminster Rifles) January 1916.

Regards

TM

[Muerrisch]

Tocemma, Joe, super contributions to this thread: Joe, that Expeditionary Forces Canteen list sounds tasty, please. Do you have the Gamages catalog list .... you can have a copy if not.

[tocemma]

Grumpy et al,

 

Scouts badge in worsted as worn by this splendid Scout Sergeant of the 1/1st North Somerset Imperial Yeomanry.

For the uniform and equipment fraternity the Mk IV or V .455 webley pistol, pistol lanyard, pattern '03 belt and holster, and Strap, Supporting, Pistol.

Note he also has a folded 'sun curtain' attached to his Service Dress cap.

Tocemma

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[Muerrisch]

Thank you: I'll scan and post my tatty local-made scouts badge tomorrow.

[tocemma]

Last one for now,

Five CSM's of the 7th (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment, TF, (the shiny seventh) Photo taken in Watford in December 1914.

Some fine moustachery going on here! Also some early Service Dress still in use here.

One for Joe Sweeney check out the seated NCO His tunic still has the buff twisted cord epaulettes officially obselete several years before this photo was taken. Note the differently shaped collar on these early jackets too. I assume he was an older Reservist who had recently rejoined the Colours. Note also the NCO to his right, has a similar older tunic. Visible in the original print are the sewn down replacement shoulder straps issued to 'upgrade' this style of tunic.

I have previously posted a photo of RWF NCOs showing another style of removable straps issued on the interim style service dress.

Back to this thread however.... Note the GM Crowns in use both on tunics and greatcoats here.

TM

[tocemma]

Grumpy,

Musicians badge on a painfully young looking Rifleman of the Royal Irish Rifles. This one might have a dark felt backing it looks like there is something there on the original print, possibly green? I once owned a tunic to the Civil Service Rifles which had the same badge and had a red backing felt.

Regards

Tocemma

[tocemma]

Hello Grumpy,

Last one for today, CSM George Smart (and PT Instructor) unless this is a Regimental appointment. Either way a fine selection of insignia being displayed here. A set of South Africa gongs too. Inniskilling Fusiliers, Battalion unknown. Photo taken in Belfast and dated 22-1-15.

 

Regards

Tocemma

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma