Training before leaving UK

[Wattsy]

Hi everyone

Does anybody have any idea how much training soldiers (rifleman) would have had before leaving the UK. My Grandfather was in France in March 1915 and I wondered when he would have likely to enlisted. Unfortunately his service records do not survive.

Anybody any ideas?

[dycer]

Chip,

Can you post your Grandfather's details i.e. Name,Number,Regiment,Battalion,etc.

We can then work out if he was a Regular,Territorial,Specialist,etc and this should help us to offer some informed answers to your questions.

George

[Wattsy]

Hi Dycer

Thanks for a quick reply.

Grandfather was Edmond Chipchase

His Regiment was 1/12 The London Regiment - The Rangers

Regiment No 2933 and then renumbered in same Regiment 470700

Entry 9th March 1915

Discharged 21 2 1919

I know he was discharged as a result of a serious wound some time at the end of the war. He had his leg amputated.

Thanks for your help

[Muerrisch]

His regimental number should help one of our experts to give a good estimate of enlistment date. It may well be an August 1914 one. ...... the statutory minimum training includiong embarkation leave was at that time 6 months, not always adhered to, and reduced later.

[geraint]

Your grandfather was in the Territorial Force, and his training would have been quite different to that received by the Kitchener volunteers of the service battalions. As he was in France by March 1915, it indicates that he was a fit and trained soldier. The Territorials were mobilised immediately in August, moved to a training center near the south coast, and selected almost individually by the battalion commanders when embarkation orders came through. Territorials had the option of serving overseas or not. On average, about 85% chose to go.

With the decimation of the original, regular battalions of the BEF at Mons and the Marne, the Territorials immediately faced the 1915 battles as the mainstay of the British Army, until the Regulars were bought up to scratch, and the Kitchener men embarked. They've not been given the recognition that they deserve, and too often derided as "Saturday soldiers". You can be most proud of his contribution.

[dycer]

Chip,

Just to add to Grumpy and Geraint's posts.

Hopefully an expert will come along and determine a date of enlistment from your Grandfather's Number.

If he was a pre War Territorial the following extract from a diary may help.

"On the 4th of August war was declared and my call up papers came through the post.We were collected in Haddington and put in three months of very hard training.The main component of which was foot slogging."

George

[geraint]

4th RWF Territorials were disembarking in France on 5th November 1914, having been in Northampton for barely 2 months.

[dycer]

Geraint,

The 5th November was a busy day for TF Troops disembarking.

The Diary entry comes from a member of the 8th Royal Scots who also landed at Le Havre on 5 November 1914.

George

[geraint]

Thanks for that Dycer. It.s almost as if they were sent out with almost indecent haste. Then times were dire, and hard measures had to be taken. I think that the Battle of Loos did for the territorials in the same way as the regulars were 'done for' in 1914.

Chipchase- I suggest you look at the Long Long Trail (button on top left of your screen) and check up the London Regiment

[RobertBr]

The Rangers went to France on 25 December 1914. They were attached as Divisional troops to 28th Division from February 1915 and then to 84 Brigade, 28th Division in March 1915.

In February 1916 they joined 168 Brigade, 56th (London TF) Division, until 2 Feb 1918. Due to the downsizing of divisions, they were then amalgamated with the second battalion to join 175 Brigade, 58th Division.

Your Grandfathers entry date of 9th March 1915 probably means he joined the Rangers as a 'replacement'.

Bob

[Muerrisch]

The above raises an intriguing question.

Firstly, it is highly likely that he was a Territorial Force soldier, but not certain.

Secondly, if he joined before August 1914, he would indeed have had training very much more rudimentary than regulars or Kitchener men.

What I do not know without further research is if the volunteers for the TF who joined after 4 August 1914 had the full regular syllabus, as did the K men. It would be illogical if they did not have this training, as their role had changed as from November 1914.

His number should tell us what we need to know about the individual.

[Anthony Gorst]

Ros et al

I have posted a reply on your other thread on Edmund Chichase to the effect that he is a pprewar Territorial.

In terms of the training he might have received, there is a monthy column in the prewar Polytechnic magazine devoted to the Polytechnic company of Rangers - I haven't looked at them in any great detal yet but I seem to recall that it gives breif details of their activites including training and their annual camps. The magazines are held at the Univeristy of Westminster archives.

[Wattsy]

Many thanks for all your help.

At least I know now that he had enlisted by October 1914. Whether or not he in the TA`s before the war I still do not know.

However, I had no prior knowledge about his link to Regent Street Poly so many thanks to Tony who kindly has emailed me a copy of the Magazine article (Oct 1914).

Thanks again

[14kvn]

Your grandfather was in the Territorial Force, and his training would have been quite different to that received by the Kitchener volunteers of the service battalions. As he was in France by March 1915, it indicates that he was a fit and trained soldier. The Territorials were mobilised immediately in August, moved to a training center near the south coast, and selected almost individually by the battalion commanders when embarkation orders came through. Territorials had the option of serving overseas or not. On average, about 85% chose to go.

With the decimation of the original, regular battalions of the BEF at Mons and the Marne, the Territorials immediately faced the 1915 battles as the mainstay of the British Army, until the Regulars were bought up to scratch, and the Kitchener men embarked. They've not been given the recognition that they deserve, and too often derided as "Saturday soldiers". You can be most proud of his contribution.

Appreciate your comments. My Grandfather enlisted in September 1914 and was put into the 1/1 Cambridgeshire RGT. which was a Territorial unit ( How is that defined ? ). As far as I know he had no previous T A experience.I don't know why you say the training was different and he was not at the South Coast center you mention. He trained as a Gunner at Long Melford and Bury St Edmunds and was dispatched to France on 14 February 1915. After a long journey he ended up near Ypres and was soon in action at St Eloi, Hill 60 , Santuary Wood and St Juliaan where he witnessed the April 1915 Gas Attacks which killed so many Canadians next to his position. As far as I know he stayed in the Salient until November 1915 when he was sent to Flixecourt and shortly after was transferred to the MGC.

Kevin

[Muerrisch]

Have I missed something: still have not seen his number!

[Anthony Gorst]

Have I missed something: still have not seen his number!

Grumpy Post 3 - 2933

Kevin (and Ros)

Your grandfathers story raises the possibility that Edmund Chipchase could have a similar story: ie he may not be a territorial - I'll have a look at the accounts of the Poly Company of the Rangers in the prewar Polymagsand see if I can pickup a reference to him to lock it down.

[Anthony Gorst]

The above raises an intriguing question.

Firstly, it is highly likely that he was a Territorial Force soldier, but not certain.

Secondly, if he joined before August 1914, he would indeed have had training very much more rudimentary than regulars or Kitchener men.

What I do not know without further research is if the volunteers for the TF who joined after 4 August 1914 had the full regular syllabus, as did the K men. It would be illogical if they did not have this training, as their role had changed as from November 1914.

His number should tell us what we need to know about the individual.

Grumpy et al

On the question training for prewar Territorials - found this in the polymag for October 1912

First year (of four years service) 40 drills of one hour each (over 20 2 hour sessions) Musketry two sessions on the open ranges. (the Poly company had exclusive use of the Rifle Range at the Polytechnic on Tuesdays and Thursdays) Camp: 15 days of which eight must be attended (in addtion Poly Company had private camps at Easter and Whitsun)

Second and succeeding years 20 hours drill. Camp and Musketry as before.

Much would obviously depend on

1) what was done at the camps

2) whether the programme was adhered to

Hope this is of interest

edit annual camp was at Wareham on Sea

[Anthony Gorst]

Ros et al

Checked the territorial column in the Polymags for 1912-1914: alas, no specific mention of Edmund Chipchase. Other ranks teend not to be named unless they win shooting or sporting prizes.

Lots of stuff on the training side with much local colour on the annual camps etc (references to bicycle polo etc)

There remains one other source for me to check but it may take a couple of weeks

[Wattsy]

Tony

Just to let you know that I spent last night reading much of Grandads first diary beginning in Jan 1915 with his training at Crowborough. He left for France on 7th March following 4 days leave. Arrived in Rouen via Le Harvre on 12th March and then went to the Front on the 15th March.

As a matter of interest do you know if the Poly Magazine was sent to the front by the Poly as it was delivered to him with letters from home. He makes a diary entry about receiving and reading it when in Etaples. There are several harrowing entries in the diary around 26th/27th April and again in (more detail) 8/9th May. In the entry for 8/0th May he mentions about another soldier called Alliston who is also mentioned in the Poly Mag (October 1914).

Hope this may be of interest.

[Anthony Gorst]

Tony

Just to let you know that I spent last night reading much of Grandads first diary beginning in Jan 1915 with his training at Crowborough. He left for France on 7th March following 4 days leave. Arrived in Rouen via Le Harvre on 12th March and then went to the Front on the 15th March.

As a matter of interest do you know if the Poly Magazine was sent to the front by the Poly as it was delivered to him with letters from home. He makes a diary entry about receiving and reading it when in Etaples. There are several harrowing entries in the diary around 26th/27th April and again in (more detail) 8/9th May. In the entry for 8/0th May he mentions about another soldier called Alliston who is also mentioned in the Poly Mag (October 1914).

Hope this may be of interest.

Ros

Of great interest much appreciated - if I remember rightly Polymags were sent out to those who subscribed and had left a contact address: sometimes they went out with comfort parcels from the Poly. Here's a list of those from the Poly killed in the timeframe you mention, all of them Rangers apart from the last two

WALLINGTON, LESLIE FREDERICK Other Rank Rifleman 2947 28/04/15 BARNES, LEONARD HARRY Other Rank Rifleman 1881 28/04/15 HANSFORD, GEORGE Other Rank Rifleman 2917 28/04/15 LAURIE, NATHANIEL JOHN Other Rank Rifleman 3224 29/04/15 NICHOLSON, LEONARD SAMPSON Officer Second Lieutenant

02/05/15 HATCHER, FRASER Other Rank Rifleman 2790 04/05/15 GREGG, GORDON Other Rank Rifleman 2087 04/05/15 BOWTELL, CHARLES RICHARD NCO Serjeant 1013 05/05/15 MATHEWS, ALFRED FELTON Other Rank Rifleman 2657 05/05/15 TIBBITTS, CLARENCE FRANCIS Other Rank Rifleman 2350 07/05/15 JAMES, THOMAS SPENCER Other Rank Rifleman 2177 08/05/15 TUTTON, ARTHUR FREDERICK NCO Corporal 1891 08/05/15 ASHPOLE, GEORGE ALEXANDER Other Rank Rifleman 2127 08/05/15 PARRISH, THOMAS Other Rank Rifleman 2434 08/05/15 GADSDEN, WILLIAM DUNSTAN Other Rank Rifleman 3114 08/05/15 PHILCOX, PERCY WILLIAM ARTHUR Other Rank Rifleman 3252 08/05/15 PAGE, FRANK WILMOTT Other Rank Rifleman 1738 08/05/15 JEFFORD, WILLIAM ARTHUR Officer Second Lieutenant

08/05/15 HUGHES-ROBERTS, GARTH IVOR Other Rank Rifleman 2340 08/05/15 CARTWRIGHT, CLAUD Other Rank Rifleman 2167 08/05/15 ROUTLEDGE, LESLIE HERBERT Other Rank Rifleman 1951 08/05/15 WHITE, HEDLEY TALBOT NCO Lance Corporal 2540 08/05/15 CAVE, VINCENT NCO Company Serjeant Major 1046 08/05/15 PARSLOW, FRANK BERTRAM Other Rank Rifleman 2542 08/05/15 WHITE, CHARLES CECIL NCO Lance Corporal 1744 08/05/15 WYLLIE, SIDNEY ALFRED Other Rank Private 3382 09/05/15 WEBB, JOHN TIMMS Officer Second Lieutenant

09/05/15

Alliston is not on the memorial so hopefully he made it....

[eirridia]

The above raises an intriguing question.

Firstly, it is highly likely that he was a Territorial Force soldier, but not certain.

Secondly, if he joined before August 1914, he would indeed have had training very much more rudimentary than regulars or Kitchener men.

What I do not know without further research is if the volunteers for the TF who joined after 4 August 1914 had the full regular syllabus, as did the K men. It would be illogical if they did not have this training, as their role had changed as from November 1914.

His number should tell us what we need to know about the individual.

Ah... Now this might solve a question I've always had about my Ggrandfathers service. He joined up for 1/19th London in February 1915, but when they all shipped out in March he didn't go with them. He stayed in England until August 1915 then embarked for France and joined his battalion there. Almost 6 months to the day.

[Wattsy]

Hi Tony

I have sent to an email

Ros