1907 scabbards

[N White]

All these scabbards fit their bayonets just fine, no shrinkage. The largest difference is over 2 cm. Are length differences just due to maker? Just curious- I hung my 1907s in a row and was surprised to see they were uneven.

[findabetterole]

If you had a difference of a couple of inches.. thats the time to start wondering as to the validity / authenticity of the scabbard. A couple of centimetres here and there are by no means out of the norm.

I've illustrated what I mean by a selection of ten randomly selected scabbard from my '07' bayonet collection. As you can see, no two scabbards are the same length.

There are a number of factors to this = differing manufacturer, different locket and chape, age of scabbards, climates the items have been stored in, repair work to the scabbard, how and where the item has been stored, etc;.

What needs to be realised here is that a scabbard is mainly leather. Leather is a natural material, and as such, over time will shrink (due to little use or incorrect storage) or stretch (due to regular wear / usage).

So, as one can see, your differing '07' scabbard lengths are nothing out of the norm.

Seph

[4thGordons]

Seph beat me to it...

Mine demonstrate the same variation of +/- 15mm or so.

Couple of exceptions.... the all-metal Siamese 1907 scabbards not subject to the same variation (although the dents / bends vary!)

Also there are scabbards for the P1888 and P1903 which look similar to the '07 but are all shorter, and of course there are WWII vintage deliberately/officially shortened 1907 scabbards for the shorter (and shortened) Indian pattern bayonets.

The lengths provided in Skennerton are:

for the 1888 12.5" (317mm)

for the 1903 12.9"(328mm)

1907 scabbard is 17.9 inches (455mm),

(interestingly Skennerton gives 18" (457mm) as the length for Indian and Australian produced 1907 scabbards)

13"(330mm) for the Indian No1MkI**,

13.8"(351mm) for the Indian No1MkII

12.8"(325mm) for the Indian No1 MkII* and No1MkIII and

13"(330mm) for the Indian No1 MkIII*

It is not clear to me if these are taken from measuring examples (which would seem problematic given this thread!) or more likely from official docs.

Chris

[findabetterole]

Chris,

There you go with the Siamese '07's' again...

I would surmise that the measurements you list (curtacy of Skennerton) were from measurements he personally took from official documentation. For, as you mention, just by looking at the array of inacuracies in lengths beteween our two collections.. and those of our thread host, measuring actual examples would prove somewhat problematic!

But, this thread is concerned with the Enfield pattern 1907... not the later WW.2 variations, or the earlier Pattern 1888... tsk!, tsk!

Seph

[4thGordons]

Chris,

But, this thread is concerned with the Enfield pattern 1907... not the later WW.2 variations, or the earlier Pattern 1888... tsk!, tsk!

Seph

Ahhh.... but if someone is looking at a scabbard at a bargain price in the "field" (real or virtual) isn't it important to know what sorts of things it might be?

and of course many of the Indian ones actually use shortened british produced WWI vintage blades and scabbards.

and looking at one of the scabbards in the first picture posted I would bet one is a WWII Aussie one (brown with parkerized green/grey fittings)

so....

Chris

[findabetterole]

Actually.. the 2nd and the 4th appear to be Australian WW2 manufacture.

Talking of Australia... do you recall on an earlier thread, my mentioning of the early Australian: Lithgow '07' scabbard, with the smaller sized frog roundel? Take a look at the attached pic for comparison!

All of the bayonets from which the scabbards shown were removed from are WW1 vintage.

Seph

[N White]

Thanks for setting me straight! Incidentally my shortest is a WWI Lithgow with the A in a star mark, and as far as I can tell for mine they get longer roughly chrolologically, but as I said all fit bayonets just fine, although I have an extra scabbard lacking a bayonet.

Chris- Thank you, I am aware of the 1888 and Indian pattern length differences. I expect them to be different, I just didnt expect the standard 1907 to vary so much! Now I am tempted to break out calipers and measure the bayonets themselves.

Seph- A further question if you do not mind. In your 2nd picture you have the 4 scabbards, and you list the Vickers one as WW1 and the 2 under it as WW2. Superficially, to my eye at least they look the same. (Besides 1 being compression fit) Is it by manufacturer you can tell WW1 vs WW2 scabbards apart? I know the teardrop frogstud is early, but how to tell past that, with the round studded ones?

I kind of fell into collecting 1907s recently from French bayonets- Aside from Skennerton, what books should I pick up to help answer my own questions in the future?

Thanks for the help.

[4thGordons]

Not directly related to length but re your question on construction, here are some variations in Lockets and Chapes.

I don't know if there is a "teardrop button" locket, with a straight edge to the locket - I do not have one.

"TEARDROP"

"ROUND"

CHAPE design

Some pictures of various scabbard maker marks and scabbard construction methods might be a nice addition if anyone has them, I only have standard ones.

Chris

[Old War Skule]

Thanks for posting the pictures Chris and Seph. Two questions: 1) How was the metal portions of P1907 scabbards finished? 2) Judging from the pictures, it looks like "round" and "teardrop" frog studs were made concurrently in WW I. Is that a manufacturers variation or a change to simplify production? Thanks.

[findabetterole]

Thanks for posting the pictures Chris and Seph. Two questions: 1) How was the metal portions of P1907 scabbards finished? 2) Judging from the pictures, it looks like "round" and "teardrop" frog studs were made concurrently in WW I. Is that a manufacturers variation or a change to simplify production? Thanks.

Chris... "quote: "I don't know if there is a "teardrop button" locket, with a straight edge to the locket - I do not have one." end quote. I do take a look at no.5 in the attached pic!

In answer...

1) How was the metal portions of P1907 scabbards finished? Ans: From the various manufacturers, the scabbard furnature (chape and locket) were blued.

2) Judging from the pictures, it looks like "round" and "teardrop" frog studs were made concurrently in WW I. Is that a manufacturers variation or a change to simplify production? Ans: It was a manufacturers variation to aid in speeding up the production process. However, as this was left up to the individual manufacturer, the predominant frog stud for WW1 was the 'Teardrop'. A common misconseption has arisen over the years that the round frog stud is soley for WW2 production. This is not so, as I have mentioned above. What is correct, is that no teardrop frog studs were manufactured during WW2... there is a difference!

I have attached a pic which shows the basic timeline of the '07' scabbard chape & frog stud. As one will note, there is a steady improvement and streamlining of the chape design, culminating in that of No.6: Lithgow, Australia. The later two are common of WW2 production.

Seph

[Old War Skule]

Thank you, Seph. That's exactly what I wanted to know.