Line officer's uniform

[alex falbo]

Hello all. I've read many books and have many pictorial sources that point to the variety of British Officers unifoms throughout the War but I had a couple of questions.

At what point did officers begin to wear the SD tunic and/or other rank clothing?

Did many of them trade the Sam Browne belt for a P08 pistol arrangement webbing by late 1916 on?

Were the tunics with officer pips at the cuff common after the Somme onwards?

Did officers wear the leather jerkin or was the trench coat or double breasted great coat (not the warm) commonly worn by 1917?

I know in the field anything is possible and modifications are plentiful but I just had a few specific qquestions in mind. And I'm not looking for one answer. If there are a variety of opinions or facts than just state them.

[JulianB]

Alex, one of the simpler answers is that officers began wearing Service Dress in 1902 - after a WO directive.

Your supplementary question however, suggests you are asking about when officers began to wear O[ther] R[ank]'s tunics !! ?? I can tell you that it was some time during the Somme campaign in 1916, a letter from my grandfather (a subaltern) written in November 1916 (after moving from the Somme back to Flanders) states 'We had to wear Tommys tunics on the Somme - all officers colonels & all.' J

[alex falbo]

Yes I was referring to the Other Ranks Service Dress tunics.

Now thats interesting. Was that an order by his unit's high command?

I apologize if that fact isn't immediate to me in his statement.

Thanks for the valuable input.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Alex

The wearing of cuff insignia, plus Sam Brownes, breeches and knee boots, made officers easy targets for snipers and many British officers took to "dressing down" as camouflage. At first it was regarded by some as showing "funk" and looked down on, but later on (I think some time in 1917) it was recognised as a sensible precaution and eventually became official. "Colonels et al" suggests that the order came from the top, i.e. GHQ.

Officers provided their own kit including outer coats, so those would depend on what he preferred and could afford - as long as they didn't upset the colonel!

Ron

[alex falbo]

Good info thanks! Most aacounts seem to point to early 1917 as being the benchmark when officer "dress down" became common practice.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree it took place in some units but I am not convinced it was as widespread as is suggested. None of the famous biographies, 'Goodbye to all that', 'Memoirs of a Fox Hunting Man', 'The war the infantry knew', to mention but a few, make any mention of it and that would seem to indicate it was not a standard practice by any means. There are also many photos of troops and officers in WW1 and so far I have not seen a photo of a man in SD who is 'obviously' an officer.

[Joe Sweeney]

Alex,

Infantry Officers started wearing the equipment of the men quite early and by orders fro GHQ in Frnace.

GRO 429 -12 Dec 1914--It has been decided that Infantry Officers shall wear the equipment (web or bandoleer) as worn by their men. The issues, which will be free, should be made as far as possible from equipment recovered from casualties.....

I believe this to be haphazard in implemintation with Officers quickly supplementing pistal gear of private purchase web types.

I can't recall coming across a similar order from GHQ as far as uniforms. I would have to look through all the GROs which would take a long time and I was lucky enough to remember where this one was.

The only photo I can recall of an officer wearing an ORs SD jacket was from the Malins film of the 1st LF in a trench on 1 July with the 2nd Lt. wearing an ORs SD jacket.

Joe Sweeney

[FROGSMILE]

Alex,

Infantry Officers started wearing the equipment of the men quite early and by orders fro GHQ in Frnace.

GRO 429 -12 Dec 1914--It has been decided that Infantry Officers shall wear the equipment (web or bandoleer) as worn by their men. The issues, which will be free, should be made as far as possible from equipment recovered from casualties.....

I believe this to be haphazard in implemintation with Officers quickly supplementing pistal gear of private purchase web types.

I can't recall coming across a similar order from GHQ as far as uniforms. I would have to look through all the GROs which would take a long time and I was lucky enough to remember where this one was.

The only photo I can recall of an officer wearing an ORs SD jacket was from the Malins film of the 1st LF in a trench on 1 July with the 2nd Lt. wearing an ORs SD jacket.

Joe Sweeney

Yes, that's my point Joe, I knew officers' started to use web equipment because they discarded swords and started to use SMLEs, so they would have needed it. It is in the wearing of the mens' tunics that I doubt is quite as widespread as some would have us believe. It would have been mentioned in far more biographies.

[Ron Clifton]

None of the famous biographies, 'Goodbye to all that', 'Memoirs of a Fox Hunting Man', 'The war the infantry knew', to mention but a few, make any mention of it and that would seem to indicate it was not a standard practice by any means.

Not a very wide sample, though. Graves and Dunn were both in 2nd Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers, where it may not have been standard practice, but that is not a reliable indication for other, especially New Army, battalions!

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Dr Dunn was RAMC attached 2nd RWF.

[FROGSMILE]

Not a very wide sample, though. Graves and Dunn were both in 2nd Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers, where it may not have been standard practice, but that is not a reliable indication for other, especially New Army, battalions!

Ron

I agree not a wide sample, those are the only ones I have memorised, but there are many others including that by the son of the pre-war prime minister who was in the rifle Brigade. Also those by various other well known poets (Blunden, and Sassoon's friend Owen in the Manchesters), none of whom refer to wearing an OR's SD jacket, et al. There are numerous others less well known of course and I have yet to read one where this is mentioned. That is not to say it did not happen of course, but it does suggest it is not so widespread as is sometimes thought.

[Muerrisch]

There is even counter-comment: newly commissioned from ranks officers 'still wearing OR uniform'.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

Frogsmile: ' That is not to say it did not happen of course, but it does suggest it is not so widespread as is sometimes thought'

On the contrary I think it was very commonplace at certain stages of the war. As to the lack of images this is easily explained by the fact that relatively few photos exist of units in action. These tunics were very specific to operations and would not be worn as a general rule in areas where photographers were likely to operate.

I have had four original wind-up jackets in my years of collecting and still own two. They remain elusive and rare items for collectors. I once owned a Tommy's jacket worn in action by Lord Rowallan of the Grenadier Guards and another worn by a Coldstream Officer. Surprisingly the Guards Division were keen proponents of such usage.

The two I still retain were worn by Lt W L Anthony of the Rifle Brigade during the Battle of Arras (where he was wounded in this jacket) and a second example worn by Captain, later Major Frederick Arthur Waugh MC, of the 6th Linclnshire Regiment. The later extremely well used and clearly worn for some time. Both these jackets have the standard Battalion insignia of their respective units.

Apart from the example mentioned earlier of the Lancashire Fusilier Officer in the Somme film, I am sure that I have read a passage about a subaltern in the RWF wearing such a jacket and provoking the comment 'Who's that wart in the funk jacket' or some such. Can't for the life of me remember whose memoirs it was in though.

I have also seen a written reference to a subaltern in the Wiltshire Regiment wearing one at 3rd Ypres (he still owned the jacket at the time he wrote the article in the late 70's!)

Below is a link to a photo of Lt Col. G S Hutchinson DSO MC, wearing an OR's SD jacket complete with pips and gongs. Note also the brazed on MGC badge on his tin hat. He was at the time in command of 33rd Battalion MGC. I also have a photo somewhere of two Glosters Officers in OR's rig complete with 14 pattern equipment and Officers holsters taken in August 1916. The relative scarcity of surviving images does not prove that these jackets were not widely used in action.

Regards

Tocemma

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/tocemma/img095.jpg

[tocemma]

Hello again,

Also note the MGC collar badges on GSH's tunic

TM

[tocemma]

Hello all,

A couple of images of Lt Anthony's tunic. I have the complete uniform to this Officer along with all his personal effects. After he was wounded he did not return to France for over a year. I suspect this is why the OR's uniform he wore has survived. The SD trousers still have the creases from his puttees and mud is visible on the knees and elbows of the uniform.

A correction to my earlier post. Major Waugh was 8th Linclonshire Regiment not '6th Linclnshire' ooops!

TM

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/t...nthonyTunic.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/t...onyInsignia.jpg

[JulianB]

Interestingly my grandfather (post 2) was in the MGC too - 123 Bde, 41 Div. Yes, the phrase 'we had to' suggests an order, and, as pointed out, the reference to Colonels (? MGC or the infy Bns) means an order from on high ! I do have photographs of him and others in his unit which don't I'm afraid, show them wearing ORs tunics, in fact they are mostlly from 1917 (in the line) when they might have given up the practice ! There are certainly some who have painted MGC badges on their helmets.

[tocemma]

Hi Julian,

I think that is just the point. Not every unit wore them on grounds of taste, preference etc. Where they were worn it was probably unit wide.

Most Operational Orders for the Somme and later battles seemed to include the phrase ' Officers will be dressed and equipped as the men, sticks will not be carried' etc etc I'm sure that individual Brigades and Battalions interpreted this type of instruction from one extreme to the other.

I have long since learnt to avoid sweeping statements regarding dress and equipment of the Great War! There is way too much variation to be categoric about any issue. The safest thing to say is that it was commonplace in certain large scale offensives from the mid war period on. I think that is suitably vague enough!!

Regards

TM

[Old War Skule]

Interesting thread. I'm wondering if the practice was carried out in the German Army as well? The AEF followed the practice as well.

[alex falbo]

The first thing I learned about any war is to never make sweeping statements. I'm glad there are amny views on the subject.

However would it be safe to say that most line officers never wore cavalry breeches after 1916?

[tocemma]

Hi Alex,

I'd say that breeches were worn by nearly all Officers right through the war. As can be seen from the photo of Lt. Col. Hutchinson, these were often worn with OR's SD jackets. I would avoid the light coloured breeches though. Although these were worn by the 'dandies' for obvious reasons the colour was not too practical. Most wore darker shades of khaki with neutral shades of cloth or leather strapping.

A complete OR's uniform with SD trousers would most likely not have been the norm. Most too would have worn their shirts and ties under the jacket and this is confirmed by all the photos I have seen. I would have thought this was slightly defeating the object, but it seems to be the case.

Regards

TM

[alex falbo]

Thanks that makes sense. I ask because I am modelling the war in 1/6 scale and I am currently working on a 1917 officer in the fire trench checking on the sentries and looking at the line. I had intended for him to be equipped with a helmet officers tunic, SD trousers, puttees and a leather jerkin + scarf. I'm debating about the Sam Browne however.

[FROGSMILE]

Hello all,

Frogsmile: ' That is not to say it did not happen of course, but it does suggest it is not so widespread as is sometimes thought'

On the contrary I think it was very commonplace at certain stages of the war. As to the lack of images this is easily explained by the fact that relatively few photos exist of units in action. These tunics were very specific to operations and would not be worn as a general rule in areas where photographers were likely to operate.

I have had four original wind-up jackets in my years of collecting and still own two. They remain elusive and rare items for collectors. I once owned a Tommy's jacket worn in action by Lord Rowallan of the Grenadier Guards and another worn by a Coldstream Officer. Surprisingly the Guards Division were keen proponents of such usage.

The two I still retain were worn by Lt W L Anthony of the Rifle Brigade during the Battle of Arras (where he was wounded in this jacket) and a second example worn by Captain, later Major Frederick Arthur Waugh MC, of the 6th Linclnshire Regiment. The later extremely well used and clearly worn for some time. Both these jackets have the standard Battalion insignia of their respective units.

Apart from the example mentioned earlier of the Lancashire Fusilier Officer in the Somme film, I am sure that I have read a passage about a subaltern in the RWF wearing such a jacket and provoking the comment 'Who's that wart in the funk jacket' or some such. Can't for the life of me remember whose memoirs it was in though.

I have also seen a written reference to a subaltern in the Wiltshire Regiment wearing one at 3rd Ypres (he still owned the jacket at the time he wrote the article in the late 70's!)

Below is a link to a photo of Lt Col. G S Hutchinson DSO MC, wearing an OR's SD jacket complete with pips and gongs. Note also the brazed on MGC badge on his tin hat. He was at the time in command of 33rd Battalion MGC. I also have a photo somewhere of two Glosters Officers in OR's rig complete with 14 pattern equipment and Officers holsters taken in August 1916. The relative scarcity of surviving images does not prove that these jackets were not widely used in action.

Regards

Tocemma

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/tocemma/img095.jpg

Tocemma: "I am sure that I have read a passage about a subaltern in the RWF wearing such a jacket and provoking the comment 'Who's that wart in the funk jacket' or some such. Can't for the life of me remember whose memoirs it was in though".

The memoir was Robert Graves 'Goodbye to all That' and refers to when he, as a RWF officer temporarilly attached to a Welch Regt Service Batt, returned to one of his parent regiment's Regular Battalions wearing a Welch Regt SD tunic with rank on the shoulder strap and was duly upbraided. It does not refer to an OR's tunic. I do not doubt that many officers tunics with rank on shoulder strap were worn (not least by the Foot Guards), but although I know that some unit's officers did, for various offensives, temporaily wear OR SD jackets, I do not think it was universal, or even as widespread as some would have it. I take your points re photographs, but that does not explain away the numerous memoirs and indeed novels (e.g. Frederick Manning's iconic read - 'Her Soldiers We') that make no mention of it whatsoever. I think that this is unconscionable if the practice was extremely widespread.

[tocemma]

Hello all,

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/tocemma/img096.jpg

Knew I had this somewhere! Glosters Officers August 1916. Full of detail this one. Officer in foreground has the following: Early Brodie with the lt green paint finish, ID bracelet, metal pip on shoulder strap, pistol lanyard around right shoulder going to what looks very much like a Colt 1911 (or similar automatic) in a canvas holster. I have one of these and it has an identical magazine pouch to the front just like this one, full 14 pattern including haversack and rolled groundsheet (notice how low he is wearing it), Pattern 1915 aluminium waterbottle in 14 pattern cradle. PH helmet in bag.

His colleague has the textured paint finish on his Brodie, again 14 pattern equipment and has OR's trousers, puttees and even issue boots. Note his top pockets are stuffed with notebooks message cards maps etc. On the original print a woven pip can just be made out.

Although I accept that this is at the extreme end of 'Officers will be dressed and equipped as the men' it does illustrate what happened in some units.

The battered Tommy's jacket I have to Major Waugh of the 8th Lincolns is a case in point. It carries the rank of Captain. It can clearly be seen by the three equally mismatched pairs of pips (2nd Lt, Lt, Capt) that he had used this jacket for some time. I have a chit he was given at the railhead which lists the issue of 2 gas helmets and an iron ration to 2nd Lt Waugh. (dressed and equipped as the men)

In Lt Anthony's kit is a privately acquired rifle sling of good quality leather and his equipment is made up of modified webbing and sam browne items. At least one of the web items has the name and number of a kia from his unit written on.

Photo 2 is of a 1916 kit monster. This Argyll's captain has assembled quite an interesting rig. He has the regimental badge painted on his tin hat (I once had one to this Regiment with the badge painted in pale blue) He has an adpted set of '08 and note the outrageous use of a web entrenching tool head carrier as a holster! What I thought were sponge backed gas goggles attached to his waistbelt could possibly be a rolled PHG helmet as the metal fttings around the eyepieces look like the latter. (I'm not sure on this one) It is possible he has an SBR as he has another strap passing around his body, it could be a rolled over SBR strap. Certainly the Officer alonside him in the original print has an SBR, although it could well be an Officers haversack. I would suspect it was taken in winter 1916. I know it was taken in the Somme area.

Again (I've used the term kit monster) it is a little extreme but is an indication of the sort of trench kit that did not always get recorded in contemporary 'formal' photos.

Hope this is of interest.

Tocemma

[alex falbo]

Those are some facsinating photos. Thanks very much for the information; most helpful. It confirms the fact that a variety of choices and customization was practiced.

Weren't there two types of formal officer tunics?

[FROGSMILE]

Hello all,

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/tocemma/img096.jpg

Knew I had this somewhere! Glosters Officers August 1916. Full of detail this one. Officer in foreground has the following: Early Brodie with the lt green paint finish, ID bracelet, metal pip on shoulder strap, pistol lanyard around right shoulder going to what looks very much like a Colt 1911 (or similar automatic) in a canvas holster. I have one of these and it has an identical magazine pouch to the front just like this one, full 14 pattern including haversack and rolled groundsheet (notice how low he is wearing it), Pattern 1915 aluminium waterbottle in 14 pattern cradle. PH helmet in bag.

His colleague has the textured paint finish on his Brodie, again 14 pattern equipment and has OR's trousers, puttees and even issue boots. Note his top pockets are stuffed with notebooks message cards maps etc. On the original print a woven pip can just be made out.

Although I accept that this is at the extreme end of 'Officers will be dressed and equipped as the men' it does illustrate what happened in some units.

The battered Tommy's jacket I have to Major Waugh of the 8th Lincolns is a case in point. It carries the rank of Captain. It can clearly be seen by the three equally mismatched pairs of pips (2nd Lt, Lt, Capt) that he had used this jacket for some time. I have a chit he was given at the railhead which lists the issue of 2 gas helmets and an iron ration to 2nd Lt Waugh. (dressed and equipped as the men)

In Lt Anthony's kit is a privately acquired rifle sling of good quality leather and his equipment is made up of modified webbing and sam browne items. At least one of the web items has the name and number of a kia from his unit written on it.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/tocemma/img097.jpg

Photo 2 is of a 1916 kit monster. This Argyll's captain has assembled quite an interesting rig. He has the regimental badge painted on his tin hat (I once had one to this Regiment with the badge painted in pale blue) He has an adpted set of '08 and note the outrageous use of a web entrenching tool head carrier as a holster! What I thought were sponge backed gas goggles attached to his waistbelt could possibly be a rolled PHG helmet as the metal fttings around the eyepieces look like the latter. (I'm not sure on this one) It is possible he has an SBR as he has another strap passing around his body, it could be a rolled over SBR strap. Certainly the Officer alonside him in the original print has an SBR, although it could well be an Officers haversack. I would suspect it was taken in winter 1916. I know it was taken in the Somme area.

Again (I've used the term kit monster) it is a little extreme but is an indication of the sort of trench kit that did not always get recorded in contemporary 'formal' photos.

Hope this is of interest.

Tocemma

Very much of interest Tocemma. Thanks for posting these rare photos. As you say, some units definitely had their officers in ORs SD. Hopefully others will add to this post. I have a feeling that the practice was much more common in New Army Formations and units than amongst the Regulars, so it will be interesting to see what anyone else can post in the way of similar photos.