Presentation of a Tank to the City of Winchester

[themonsstar]

PRESENTATION OF TANK TO THE CITY OF WINCHESTER, May 7th, 1919.

On Wednesday the Mark IV Female Tank, presented by the War Office to the city of Winchester in recognition of its war work, was formally handed over to the Mayor and Corporation at the Guildhall with appropriate military pageantry. The ceremony was excellently arranged and stage managed. Thanks to the kindly thought of the Mayor, the children of the elementary schools were afforded exceptionally good facilities for witnessing the ceremony. Under the care of their teachers they were posted in front of the spectators in the Broadway, and the opportunity of an impressive object lesson on Treaty Day was fully taken advantage of.

First, as to the Tank. It may not be generally known that the difference between a female and male Tank is that the former carries only Hotchkiss and Lewis guns, as against the six-pounders and Vickers’ guns with which the male Tank is armed, and that Tanks usually work in pairs. Winchester's Tank, which was the property of the Tank Cadet Battalion commanded by Lieut.-Col. Leggett, D.S.O., Worcestershire Regt., attached Tank Corps, has been stationed at Hazeley Camp. She was handed over in her war paint with her official number, " 223/' in huge figures on either side. She left the camp at 1.30 on Tuesday afternoon, and walked across the downs to Winchester, having quite a sporting time in negotiating the ancient sunken roads by the side of the Portsmouth main road, standing on her nose in the hollows and feeling her way up the steep sides, and then making good speed on the modern macadam to Bar End, where she was stationed at 3.30 p.m. for the night in the G.W. goods yard.

At 11 o'clock on Wednesday her crew (Sergt. Weatherall, R.S.M. Noble, M.C., C.S.M. Warren, Sergt.Bugler-Munn, and Ptes. Hargreaves and Leadbetter) again took the road, and she proceeded by way of Bar End and Cheesehill-street to St. Peter's Church, the operations being directed by Capt. Bouverie, 5th Dragoon Guards, attached Tank Corps. Here she awaited a very smart escort of 40 men, 4 sergeants, and 1 warrant officer, under 2nd Lieut. Paterson, provided by the Royal Newfoundland Regt. from Hazeley Camp. The procession formed at 11.55 consisted of the band of the 2nd Batt. the Hampshire Regt., the R.N.F.D. escort with fixed bayonets, and six officers and 300 men from the Repatriation Camp, the latter being under the command of Major de L. Long, D.S.O. The official orders provided that these detachments should be representative of all countries as far as possible, and there were represented : Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, Newfoundland, and other dependencies, as well as America. The last contingent was composed of early volunteers of American citizens who came over and joined the British Army. Another interesting contingent was a composite platoon in which were representatives of almost all arms of the British Army and of a score of County regiments.

The official time-table was well kept. Punctually at 11.55 the column, headed by Lieut.-Colonel Leggett, D.S.O., Capt Bouverie and Lieut, and Quarter Master Brown, of the Tank Corps, moved, and at noon arrived at the Guildhall. Here the Mayor (Alderman Edrneades), the Ex-Mayor (Councillor Sealey), Alderman Carter, Councillors Easther, Hayward, Mathews, Clifton and Sillence, with the Town Clerk, in their official robes and with mace bearers and regalia, were in waiting on the Guildhall steps. Amongst the distinguished officers and visitors present were : Col. Brake, Area Commander; Col. Oppenheim and Major Proctor, Repatriation Records; Lieut.-Colonel Westmorland, Hampshire Regt., Major T. H. Davison, R.F.A. (representing the High Commissioner of South Africa), Major Wren, Australian Field Artillery (representing the High Commissioner of Australia), Capt. Sooullar, (representing the High Commissioner of New Zealand), Lieut. C. J. Archer, 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles (representing Canada), Lieut. T. R. Kane, American Air Service (American Liaison Officer attached Repatriation Camp), the Rev. Walter Naish (formerly commanding)2/4th Hampshire R-egt), Lieut.-Col. W. P. Standish, and other representative British officers, besides leading Winchester citizens. The Tank was halted exactly opposite the Mayor, turned about on its own ground with precision which would have satisfied even the most critical R.S.M., and came to rest for the presentation ceremony. The crew emerged through the trap doors showing evidence of their warm work within. The escort formed line in front of the Tank, with the band on the right, and the column closed up and faced the Guildhall for the speech-making.

Col. Leggett's speech.

Col. Leggett, speaking from the top of the Tank, and addressing the Mayor and Corporation, said he had been detailed to hand over to their safe keeping that Tank, and though he was a very junior, and therefore felt a very unworthy, representative of H.M. Army to be entrusted with such a mission, on the other hand, he felt very proud at the honour which was being done him in performing that little ceremony. For one reason the Tank belonged to the Tank Corps Cadet Battalion which he had the honour of commanding since they came to Winchester; and secondly because the Mayor and his colleagues were personal friends of theirs, for whom they had very great respect; and thirdly, because it gave him the opportunity of thanking the Mayor and the citizens of Winchester for the great kindness and hospitality extended to them during their stay in the City. Tanks were being distributed to various centres in England, Scotland and Wales, and being a large and heavy and unwieldy object with no great personal beauty about it, the gift had not always been welcomed with acclamation. (Laughter.) But he would remind them that ugliness sometimes had its beauty, and though at first sight owing to its unwieldy bulk and clumsy gait they might think the Tank was ugly, on closer inspection they began to find out its good points. If only because the Boche always found the Tank a very terrifying object from which he invariably bolted (and he did not blame him)—(laughter) — never staying to admire its graceful curves and lines, they ought to love it. (Applause.) The soldiers who looked after it, who fed it, who attended to all its many requirements, they might be sure that after an action they called it their beauty, for it never failed to- do what was asked of it. (Applause.)

He could not tell them there all that the Tanks had done, but he might say that they played a great part, if not the greatest part, in finishing or helping to finish the war. (Applause.) If it had not been for the Tank the war might have been going on now. It was a well-known and fundamental fact that, put one man against another, the one who was most heavily armed, had the greatest mobility, and was the most impervious to being hurt, would always win. Armour, mobility, and power to hit were the deciding factors of any fight. (Applause.) These were the very things that new invention, the Tank, brought out. They produced the power to hit, the invulnerability and the mobility required. By finishing the war when it did, the Tank saved thousands and thousands of lives; by its aid and assistance in battle it saved thousands of lives, and, let them remember, this was entirely an invention of British genius. (Applause.) One well-known General had told him that before the Tanks came and helped, his Division would lose thousands in battle; with the help of the Tanks his losses would amount to only as many hundreds. (Applause.)

Ask the New Zealanders, the Australians, or any of their fighting forces what they thought of the Tanks; why, they would not go into action without them. (Applause.) He only hoped those who did not approve of the Tank would remember that it was an invention solely due to British genius— (applause)—and that therefore it ought to be an object of great interest not only to them now, but to their children and their children's children. (Applause.) Col. Leggett proceeded to give extracts showing what the Boche thought of the Tanks. Ludendorf said that the utmost attention must be paid to combating Tanks. They must, he wrote, reckon with more strongly armoured, smaller, and more mobile Tanks which were most dangerous. The Minister of War in the German Reichstag made the statement that the attack on August 8th between the Avre and the Ancre was not unexpected by their leaders. When, nevertheless, the English succeeded in achieving a great success, the reasons were to be sought in the massed employment of Tanks and surprise under the protection of fog.

The American Armies, he said, should not terrify them. They would also settle with them. Moremomentous for them was the question of Tanks. Col. Leggett also quoted a German communique which stated that the real reason for the Allies' successes was the massed use of Tanks, which, of all arms, was the most suitable for obtaining a break-through and formed also the best means of exploiting a success. Continuing, the speaker quoted letters of appreciation of the work of the Tanks, from Major-General G. Lipsett, commanding 3rd Canadian Division; Major-Gen. Deverall, commanding 3rd Division; and Major-Gen. F. Ashley Cubitt, commanding 38th (Welsh) Division. The reading of a telegram from the General Commanding the French Armies acknowledging the effective assistance given to a French Division, and saying of a Tank Battalion that " by their courage, energy, cohesion and military training they had won the enthusiastic admiration of their French comrades " was heartily received, as also the tribute of a General Officer commanding a French Division.

These, said Col. Leggett, were only some of many thousands of such tributes. In concluding an impressive speech, Col. Leggett reminded those who might not happen to approve of the Tank that it was a female, and therefore especially deserving of their consideration and affection. Lastly, if for no other reasons than those he had mentioned, the city ought to be proud to have an object so interesting, and more especially as, ever since the beginning of the war, Winchester had been a large military centre. Many Divisions had trained here prior to going out to France. They had had the largest American Best Camp in the country there; they had even now got all their splendid brethren from overseas waiting to go back to their homes, and who had done them the honour of providing an escort for the Tank, namely, the Royal Newfoundland Regt. They had also representatives of other British Dominions there, and they had also had troops of the Allies at Winchester.

To all and sundry the Mayor and citizens of Winchester had extended the utmost hospitality, and as one of their guests he Would like to express to the Mayor personally and to the city how much they appreciated the warm-hearted manner in which the city had received them all. He wished especially to thank the Mayor, who had done so much during the last four and a half years to encourage and perpetuate the goodfeeling which undoubtedly existed between the civil and military population. (Applause.) He therefore begged to present the Tank to the care and safe-keeping of the ancient and royal city of Winchester. (Applause.)

THE MAYOR'S REPLY.

The Mayor, who was received with hearty applause, said it was a matter of much gratification to him that he should be permitted, on behalf of the City, to accept the Tank for safe custody. If possible, its value had been enhanced by the very generous tribute that Col Leggett had paid to the work which the citizens had done for the soldiers who had been amongst them. (Applause.) He could honestly say for every citizen of Winchester that they had welcomed every opportunity that had occurred of doing something, as lay in their power, to assist in making the stay of the men in their midst pleasant. They had not been able to do so much as they would have liked to have done, but the accommodation and the powers of a small City like Winchester were very limited.

Winchester was very grateful to Col. Leggett for the most interesting address he had given them and for the extracts he had read, showing the value which had been placed upon Tanks by British and Allied officers, and the dread of the Tanks which had been shown by the Germans. (Applause.) They would treasure that Tank in the City of Winchester. It might truthfully be said that the Tank was not beautiful, but he thought Col. Leggett had proved that " handsome is as handsome does " — (applause)—and that Tank, among others, had done handsomely, and to that extent might be admired even though its lines might not be particularly graceful. (Applause.) If he might venture to prophesy, he believed that those boys and girls present would in 50 years' time look upon the Tank as one of the most treasured possessions of the city of Winchester.

(Applause.)

They had never lost their sentimental feeling for the old Russian gun at the bottom of the town taken in the Crimean war and presented to the city, and he felt certain they would value even more highly that memento of this much more important war which had been given to them, he was gratified to think, for the services said to have been rendered by the city. (Applause.) The Tank would be very much appreciated, and would grow in value as time went on. If he mightsay one more word it would be about the presence that morning of the escort to the Tank. (Applause.)

They were very grateful indeed to see all those men from overseas who had done them the honour of coming to assist in the ceremony of presenting the Tank to Winchester. (Applause.) It had been his privilege on Saturday in London to witness the march of the Colonial troops through the City, and it was inspiring not only to see the enthusiasm with which they were received, but also to see the magnificent way in which they marched, and the evidence that they were not downhearted by any means, although, like those present, many of them were longing to get back to their own country.

So far as those present were concerned, he hoped their delay in Winchester might not be long and irksome to them, or make their life more burdensome than was inevitable. (Applause.) The city was very grateful to them all. (Applause.) In conclusion, he said they were also grateful to the Government for presenting the Tank and especially so as they had deputed Col. Leggett, a very good friend of the city of Winchester, to present it to them. (Applause.) If Colonel Leggett would allow them, the Mayor and Corporation would be very glad to join the procession to take the Tank to its resting place, and to see it put where they hoped it might rest for hundreds of years. (Applause.)

The procession then formed in different order, the troops from the Repatriation Camp following the band. Then came the Mayor and Corporation, the Town Clerk and Chief Constable; and finally the Tank and escort. In the Recreation Ground approach the Repatriation Camp troops divided right and left of the road, and the civic procession, escort, and Tank passed into the Recreation Ground. Here again, in the limited space available, children occupied the front place. The task of manoeuvring the Tank in the confined area between the gates and the prepared concrete base was not easy owing to the soft nature of the ground, but in a very few minutes her 28 tons bulk had been coaxed into position by backing and sidling, and then a short forward run. Finally, her engines were shut off, and she rested, pointing up stream, where she will be a much-debated object of interest probably many generations.

The closing " act" of the ceremonial was brief, but interesting.

Colonel Leggett announced that in the Army it was the custom to demand a receipt for everything handed over, and, he added, addressing the Mayor, " if you will kindly give me a receipt for the Tank I shall be much obliged/''

His Worship intimated that he had anticipated some acknowledgment would be required, and handed to the Quartermaster an official receipt, which had been already prepared.

All stood at " attention " as the band played the National Anthem, and hearty cheers, led by Councillor Sjllence, closed the public proceedings.

The troops returned to the Guildhall precincts, where they were entertained by the Mayor with light refreshments. Alderman Edmeades met with a spontaneous expression of goodwill when he appeared amongst them, and his announcement that he would gladly conduct parties of men round the city, or arrange for conductors, was gladly accepted. The Mayor's health was heartily drunk, and after reciprocal good wishes, many men from far distant parts Qf the British Empire and from America claimed a hearty handshake before falling in to march back to quarters.

We may safely say there has been no more popular public function connected with the war than Wednesday's ceremonial, and there were many expressions o,f pleasure from the troops participating that they had had the privilege of doing so. It was a happy, if unexpected coincidence that it should also be " Treaty Day," and we may suggest that in any inscription which may be placed upon the Tank this fact should also be recorded.

Excellent order prevailed throughout, and the work of the civil and military police, if arduous, was pleasant. A word of appreciation must also be said of the exemplary behaviour of the school children, who will long remember what may well be described as the first event of Winchester's peace celebrations.

Alderman Shenton, Councillor Shenton, Coun¬cillor Vacher, and Councillor Hooley expressed regret at being unable to attend.

[NigelS]

Thanks for taking the time (and doubtless trouble) to transcribe and post this interesting contemporary report; A local village to here (Chobham) also had a Russian cannon which was either stolen or went for scrap at some stage (WWII ?) but has in more recent years been replaced with either one of a similar age to the original or a good replica.

NigelS

[Sidearm]

Yes, thank you very much indeed for this post, which contains alot of information that was new to me. I take it that this is from a newspaper? If so, might I ask whether it would it be possible to know which one and the date?

Thanks again. Much appreciated.

Gwyn

[themonsstar]

Cheers to you both.

Its out of the book "24th (Tank Corps) Cadet Battalion" published May 1919 Hazeley Down Camp Jan 18-May 1919.

Its reprinted in the book from the "Hampshire Observer" Winchester May 10th 1919

[delta]

Most interesting - thanks for sharing.I assume that you only ave the extract , not the whole history of 24th Bn

I believe that the recreation ground is in North Walls. Sadly the tank ust have been removed before the early 1960s as I have no memory of it when I played there as a boy

Stephen.

[J T Gray]

A local village to here (Chobham) also had a Russian cannon which was either stolen or went for scrap at some stage (WWII ?) but has in more recent years been replaced with either one of a similar age to the original or a good replica.

I went to a wedding in Chobham recently, and we passed the gun on the way to the church. I'm 99% certain that it is a replica, having read and carefully forgotten the information on the plaque, though a very convincing one.

Adrian

[Sidearm]

Hampshire Record Office have three photographs of the ceremony to hand over the tank. Reference 102M94W.

Unfortunately I'm nowhere near Hampshire...

Gwyn

[Alan24]

Found this thread the other morning. On the last day of the school holidays this year, I took my kids to find the location of where the tank was located to get a sort of before and after photo.

 

Here's the result. You can still see the brick pier. The round building in the background is Winchester School of Art library in Park Avenue. 

[Alan24]

This is the original picture postcard. The tank was removed in 1939/40 for scrap.

 

Winchester, like Chobham, also had a Russian gun, the cause of a riot in 1908, that also went for scrap at the same time.

[Alan24]

Finally, a picture outside the Guildhall with Lt. Col. Leggett DSO on top of the tank.

 

Alan.

[delta]

Thanks for sharing the images

[sdparker]

             

 

Hi Everybody

This  thread has given me the opportunity to put up these photos which I took last month in the town centre

in Ashford Kent. I believe it is the only remaining presentation tank still in situ. The reason it was not taken

away for scrap like all the others is that at some time between the wars, an electricity sub-station was

constructed inside making it indispensable !

Have photos from other angles if anyone interested

Regards

Geoff

[Dave1418]

The sponsons were at one time bricked up there is still some of the racking for the ammunition boxes inside. There is currently a lottery bid in progress to get it restored but it I believe due to its fragile condition it will have to be lifted out on part of the concrete base

[Sidearm]

The word "restored" makes me shudder.  It needs to be conserved, not restored.  Restoration will involve replacing original parts with new, which makes it less easy to study and in time people will forget what's original and what replacement.  In any case it is probably not capable of meaningful restoration.  As it is the rear has been "restored" but modelled on a Mark IV with an envelope radiator, whereas this tank originally had a tubular radiator and so the arrangement of the armour at the rear is now incorrect. The exhaust is correct for an early production Mark IV, but other indications show that this is actually a late production Mark IV.  (There are other problems with the "restored" Mark IV in Lincoln, which again ought to have been conserved and properly documented.)

 

I have asked the Council whether it's possible to access the interior because I would like to identify this tank's serial number.  This should be on castings at the top of each of the rear diaphragm plates, both of which are still in situ.  Unfortunately, though understandably, I have been denied access on the grounds of health and safety. (The top plates of the tank are held up by builder's acro props, which is worth bearing in mind...)  On the subject of health and safety, at present each end of the sponsons are full of bricks.  It is in my view imperative that these are removed because they're imposing a weight on the sponsons that they were never intended to carry.  

 

I am also interested in studying the structural steel components (a somewhat niche but specialist subject of mine).  At present these are covered in too many coats of paint to allow me to see what I need to see.  Careful application of paint stripper is needed.  

 

If anyone is seriously considering doing work on this tank, I'd be interested to hear whether there would be any opportunity to study parts that are otherwise not easily on view.  Does anyone know who is submitting the lottery bid please?  Please post here or PM me.

 

Gwyn

[Dave1418]

Gwyn

you are perhaps unaware of the quality of the work that the people who have surveyed it and placed the lottery bid do. They have restored many vehicles using where possible original parts and where this is not possible manufacture parts from the original drawings or parts from other vehicles which they have access to. They even have the paint layers analysed so their depth of knowledge is very good.

They have had access to the interior and have photos some of which show numbers, this was done to assess the amount of work required. They are also aware of the issues around some of the work that was undertaken following the removal of the sub station which is not correct.

Dave

[Sidearm]

Dave

 

I may be too much of a purist for other's taste but replacing original parts on a very rare WW1 tank is not, to my mind, acceptable.  What exactly is the point of restoring this tank?  It has no floor, nor does it have a port rear drive sprocket.  The interior has been completely gutted, and the roof is held in place by acro props as previously mentioned. All the vision slits have been sealed, and the original armour will be brittle so running it is not an option.  The rear was removed in the 1920s, and what is there now is a modern replica and an incorrect one at that.  I know of only a handful of people who can tell a Mark IV with an envelope radiator from one with a twin tubular, and only two people who can tell you without knowing the serial number which factory this tank was built in.  There are a lot of people who have restored many more modern vehicles and done some great work, but WW1 tanks are so rare replacing bits just isn't on.  It's the innocuous bits that to someone like myself who's spent years studying the Mark IV tell the tank's history.  It's those same bits that still have more to tell us.      

 

Don't get me wrong, I want this tank properly documented and conserved so it's around for the 200th anniversary of the Great War and if they're applying for money to do that then that's great, but restoring it is just not the way to go.  It isn't a WW2 jeep.  

 

If you're in touch with the people behind this can you help me obtain one of these photos showing the numbers?  Or any other photos that show maker's marks etc?  Can you put me in touch with them even?

 

Gwyn 

[Gareth Davies]

I'm not one of the 2 people that can tell you the factory that a tank was made in, and I am not in that handful of people who knows his envelopes from his twin tubulars, but I agree with @Sidearm.  Conservation not restoration is exactly what is required. There are precious few of these wonderful machines left. Let's keep them around for Tank200, but not by turning them into modern replicas.

[Dave1418]

Gwyn

please pm me an email address and I'll see if I can get you a copy of the pictures. The current restorations they are doing on a couple of WW1 tanks are exceptional.

 

All of the original armour has been heat treated to take out the brittleness and parts sourced from over Europe including original engines. Anything else is then engineered as per the original if they can't find it.

Its better to be restored than just be left to rot like it is at present.

Dave

 

[Sidearm]

Will do Dave.  Thank you. What other WW1 tanks are they working on?

 

Gwyn

[Dave1418]

Gareth

to conserve it as is would require copious amounts of work and it would still have to be move from where it is. This may risk serious damage for no specific benefit. Restoring it would put it to good use for engineering and educational purposes. Similarly to do so would bring together parts of original vehicles which may be lost to future generations if not brought together. 

There will always be the debate over preservation 'v' restoration; if we take the former within architecture for instance then there would be thousands of buildings which could never be put to use again.

Dave

[Gareth Davies]

But we are not talking about buildings/architecture, we are talking about a Mk IV tank.  A preserved Mk IV can be put to educational and engineering purposes.  

[Sidearm]

On 9/22/2016 at 12:55, Alan24 said:

This is the original picture postcard. The tank was removed in 1939/40 for scrap.

 

 

 

Alan,

The Winchester tank was actually scrapped in situ in July / August 1935.

Gwyn

[Alan24]

Thanks Gwyn, that's good info. Can I ask the source?

The book from which the pictures came says scrapped just before WW2 and the 39/40 was just my assumption.

1935 was a lot earlier than I had imagined, any idea of the reason? Assume not for munitions like the Russian Gun. Perhaps it was in poor state by then and needed restoration...sorry...!!!

 

Alan.

 

[tanks3]

Gwyn

 

Sounds like the Weald Foundation that are interested in Ashford.  They are currently restoring a couple of WW1 French FT's, I think.

 

Tanks3

[Sidearm]

On 9/24/2016 at 15:50, Alan24 said:

Thanks Gwyn, that's good info. Can I ask the source?

The book from which the pictures came says scrapped just before WW2 and the 39/40 was just my assumption.

1935 was a lot earlier than I had imagined, any idea of the reason? Assume not for munitions like the Russian Gun. Perhaps it was in poor state by then and needed restoration...sorry...!!!

 

Alan.

 

 

You'll be sorry... ;-)

 

Information from "The Great War Presentation Tanks of England and Wales" (2nd edition, 2014) published by the Friends of the Lincoln Tank.

 

Tanks3 will be able to advise how to obtain a copy.

 

Gwyn