Last soldiers to die or be killed November 11 1918

[John Gilinsky]

I am aware of Private Price of the CEF who its asserted was the last Canadian and possibly the last Allied soldier or at least BEF member to be killed on the western front on November 11, 1918.

What about others?

I came across the following:

Sholds, Private Clarage

(Born: August 14, 1889 - died November 11, 1918 by a German sniper)

Buried Valenciennes, France St Roch Communal Cemetery

Any further information on Sholds as to WHEN he died compared to Price?

Was it possibly by the same sniper?

John

[swellal]

The CWGC lists 39 Canadians as dying on Nov 11, 1918. I suspect that it would be highly unlikely that you could positively identify the last one. And how would you treat a soldier who was wounded at 10.00 am and died at 11.00 pm from those wounds?

And of course the waters could be muddied even further as Nov 11 was just a cease fire and the actual peace treaty wasn't signed until 1921. Would you consider someone dying in Aug of 1921 as being the last? The CWGC thinks they qualify as they were listed as war dead if they died of wounds up until that date.

Just my thoughts on it.

[alliekiwi]

I thought the last solider to be killed (before the Armistice came into effect at 11am) was in British army, not Canadian. Pvt. G. E. Ellison, 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers. Price died at 10.58 am, Ellison just after that. Then there was an american who died at 11.01, but that's techincally after the fighting finished.

According the the CWGC site:

Name: ELLISON, GEORGE EDWIN

Initials: G E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers

Date of Death: 11/11/1918

Service No: L/12643

Additional information: Husband of Hannah Maria Ellison of 49 Edmund Street, Bank, Leeds. Believed to be the last battle casualty of the war.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 23.

Cemetery: ST. SYMPHORIEN MILITARY CEMETERY

Name: PRICE, GEORGE LAWRENCE

Initials: G L

Nationality: Canadian

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Canadian Infantry (Saskatchewan Regiment)

Unit Text: 28th Bn.

Age: 25

Date of Death: 11/11/1918

Service No: 256265

Additional information: Son of James E. and Annie R. Price of Port Williams, Kings Co., Nova Scotia. Believed to be the last Canadian battle casualty of the war (originally buried in Havre Old Communal Cemetery).

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: V. C. 4.

Cemetery: ST. SYMPHORIEN MILITARY CEMETERY

Although, that being said, in the information about the cemetery, the CWGC page says:

St. Symphorien Military Cemetery was made by the Germans in August 1914, after the Battle of Mons. It remained in their hands until November 1918, and has the distinction of containing the graves of some of the first and last casualties of the First World War.

//

St. Symphorien Military Cemetery is popularly believed to contain the graves of the first (Pte. J. Parr, Middlesex Regt., 21 August 1914) and the last soldier (Pte. G. L. Price, Canadian Infantry, 11 November 1918) to be killed in the First World War.

Regarding the number of Canadians who died on 11 November, Veterens Affairs Canada states:

Tragically Private Price was killed by sniper at 10:58 a.m., two minutes before the Armistice. He was the only Canadian who lost his life that day.

Perhaps the others died of wounds that day?

Allie

[swellal]

Tragically Private Price was killed by sniper at 10:58 a.m., two minutes before the Armistice. He was the only Canadian who lost his life that day.

Perhaps the others died of wounds that day?

If you look at that page you quote, it is a speech given by a politician, not a statement by VAC quoting facts. He stated that there was only 1 Canadian death that day, but he was completely wrong.

The following is from the Canadian Virtual War Memorial. The search was to find all those who died on Nov 11, 1918. These stats are drawn from the CWGC database. If you doubt them, check the CWGC website.

CVWM Advanced Search Results

Search Criteria

Date of Death: November 11, 1918

39 records found .

Surname Initial(s) Given Name Date of Death

arel O odilon Nov 11, 1918

barker S C stanley charles Nov 11, 1918

breckler F J frederick james Nov 11, 1918

brown W H william Nov 11, 1918

brunton R robert Nov 11, 1918

carson J F john fred Nov 11, 1918

conville W walter Nov 11, 1918

ells A W alfred wallace Nov 11, 1918

forrester W F william Nov 11, 1918

holliday W S william stanley Nov 11, 1918

jenkinson T thomas Nov 11, 1918

joyce F W frederick william Nov 11, 1918

landsky J G john Nov 11, 1918

lanthier L louis Nov 11, 1918

leach R J robert james Nov 11, 1918

lorenson N nels Nov 11, 1918

mahood J james Nov 11, 1918

mcalpine H D harry douglas Nov 11, 1918

mccabe C T charles thomas Nov 11, 1918

mccrae R H robert henderson Nov 11, 1918

mcgarry J james Nov 11, 1918

mcknight G F george Nov 11, 1918

mclellan A A archibald andrew Nov 11, 1918

mcphie A allan Nov 11, 1918

nagle W william Nov 11, 1918

price G L george lawrence Nov 11, 1918

riley W W william Nov 11, 1918

robinson G W george wilfred Nov 11, 1918

rose H L harry lawrence Nov 11, 1918

scammell W walter Nov 11, 1918

sharp G george Nov 11, 1918

sholds C M clarence melvin Nov 11, 1918

slade C cyril Nov 11, 1918

smart A W adam Nov 11, 1918

snowdon O A obadiah Nov 11, 1918

underwood C E clayton elmer Nov 11, 1918

wall P patrick Nov 11, 1918

wareham S B stanley Nov 11, 1918

wharrey J C john Nov 11, 1918

[auchonvillerssomme]

For those who died in other theatres or in UK then you need to take into consideration the time differences.

Mick

[alliekiwi]

I don't doubt you at all. A very good example to check facts and not believe everything a politician says!

Mick, good point.

Allie

[Paul Reed]

I spent the winter working on this subject for a BBC Timewatch which will go out just prior to 11th November this year.

From our extensive research it looks as if George Lawrence Price was the only CEF 'killed in action' that day, and his death - as recorded by comrades who were there - was at 10.58am. George Elliston died sometime before Price. He will feature quite strongly in the programme, so I can't say too much more, but it does appear he was the last British army casualty.

The majority of 11th November casualties were men who died of wounds, or who died of flu. We also found that 'SWDG' was not accurate in recording 'KIAs' - one man shown as KIA actually died of the flu, and we found at least one 'Died' who was actually killed. The same mis-recording was also evident in the RND which were very active on 11th November.

The majority of fatal battle casualties in the British Army on 11th November 1918 were in Russia.

The very last allied casualty to be killed in action before the Armistice was an American; we found some new material on him, which confirms this and which will also be in the programme.

I might add that forum members were very helpful with this Timewatch, some going to great lengths for us in finding photos and other information.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Timewatch, the last time I saw you on the telly Paul it was Crimewatch lol.

Proving a mans exact time of death is almost impossible, surely if a man was wounded even 3 days before the 11/11 and died of wounds at 10:59 am then he would be the last casualty of the war and not just the last person who was shot or blown up.

There are only a handful of people who today can confirm that a persons life is extinct (dead) what was the criteria during the war, could anyone say that Joe Bloggs is dead.

Kevin

[Paul Reed]

I think the point is Kevin, what we were looking for is some sort of meaningful criteria that would classify 'last casualties'. The men known to have been killed in action, rather than died of wounds, are immediate casualties for example. In fact we found that a Belgian soldier had been wounded just before 11am on 11/11 and died many, many years later - perhaps he is the last casualty?

The times of death for the three main men we feature all come from contemporary accounts, primary sources, and while they could of course be wrong, they are the only sources we have and it is impossible to prove or disprove them.

[truthergw]

Timing death is a tricky problem. The question assumes that someone was standing with a stopwatch to record the exact time of death. On what criteria? Breathing? Heartbeat? No notion of braindeath in those days. How good a timekeeper was the stopwatch? Was the time recorded there and then or later? How many men were lying dying in hospitals who were discovered to be dead when the nurse or medical attendant next checked? What time was given to their demise?

[Frank_East]

There is a US casualty lying in Flanders Fields US Cemetery who died on 11 November 1918.

I think his home state was New York. I took a photograph of his grave, which was some time ago and will have to reference it again.I remember having a long conversation with the Cemetery Superintedent and comparing notes on the CWGC casualty system of records against the US system and coming to the conclusion that the British system at the time had the advantage that the casualties could be readily traced via Maidenhead.Since then both the CWGC and the US Battlefield Commission have excellent databases accessible from the internet,the US having included their Korean casualties.

[old-ted]

Sounds as if this Timewatch will be a not to be missed programme. I am always interested in how it is researched and how information once found is cross checked and interpreted.

Regards

John

[nicko576]

I have a death certificate for a Pte JH Allen, who died at Langensalza.

It is signed by the registrar at the camp, giving his death at 11am, 11th November 1918 from exhaustion and pneumonia

Nick

[centurion]

Its a fair possibility that the last man to be killed will have been German as one American battery continued firing for some minutes ater the cease fire (its commander had a faulty watch).

[Paul Reed]

There is a US casualty lying in Flanders Fields US Cemetery who died on 11 November 1918.

I think his home state was New York. I took a photograph of his grave, which was some time ago and will have to reference it again.I remember having a long conversation with the Cemetery Superintedent and comparing notes on the CWGC casualty system of records against the US system and coming to the conclusion that the British system at the time had the advantage that the casualties could be readily traced via Maidenhead.Since then both the CWGC and the US Battlefield Commission have excellent databases accessible from the internet,the US having included their Korean casualties.

There are actually several men with the date 11th November 1918 buried in IFF Cemetery. They were part of the AEF units which attacked in Belgium on this date. The bulk of the AEF was in the Meuse-Argonne on this date, and more 100 men who died on 11/11/18 are buried in the cemetery there. Our research indicates the AEF lost 300+ men killed in action on 11th November; the highest of any allied nation in action that day.

Several American infantry units - as well as artillery mentioned above - kept fighting after 11am. We have that recorded in a number of different contemporary accounts.

As with any documentary, the end result is always a compromise, but I hope that members of this forum will be surprised as some of the new information we have found, and be interested in some of the stories we have been able to tell.

[old-ted]

Several American infantry units - as well as artillery mentioned above - kept fighting after 11am. We have that recorded in a number of different contemporary accounts.

Paul, was there any particular reason why they continued after 11am, or would that information give part of the programme away?

Regards

John

[Paul Reed]

We didn't really have time to go into that, sadly; there was so much rich material that even an hour of tele wasn't enough. Last week I recorded a podcast for this programme, which will be online the day the programme goes out, and that covers part of this aspect of 11th November.

[John Gilinsky]

Some thoughts and reflections on the contributions.

First thanks everyone for contributing to this topic.

Why are we interested in ascertaining now who was actually the last soldier (Allied) to be killed on the last day of the war? Does it add poignancy, old-fashioned sentimentality, poetic irony or the like to our perceptions or indeed misperceptions? Does this particular interest in fact manifest our Judeo-Christian belief in the sanctity of life and the individual? Why are we very keenly interested in some events in the war and less so than others when active service fatalities are involved? Does this last represent nationalistic chauvinism - that is the last to die must symbolize the great sacrifices of one's own country? Interesting that one post pointed out that the last soldiers on November 11, 1918 to be killed in action or die of their wounds that die were most likely GERMAN!

Thanks for your posts again,

John

[Paul Reed]

Yes John, it's an interesting one. We concluded that the whole concept of a 'last casualty' didn't come about until at least November 1968 when the memorial to Price was put on a house in Ville sur Haine by his former comrades. The knowledge that Elliston was the last British soldier, possibly not until Rose Coombes suggested it in the 1970s. And the last American, well we have 1920s accounts of that but I have no idea how well known that was, or is!

[John Gilinsky]

Yes John, it's an interesting one. We concluded that the whole concept of a 'last casualty' didn't come about until at least November 1968 when the memorial to Price was put on a house in Ville sur Haine by his former comrades. The knowledge that Elliston was the last British soldier, possibly not until Rose Coombes suggested it in the 1970s. And the last American, well we have 1920s accounts of that but I have no idea how well known that was, or is!

Thanks Paul for your compliment in starting the thread.

How I envy you for living in France on or near the 1916 battlefield sites.

John

[old-ted]

Paul,

I'll have to get a youngster to teach me how to download a "podcast". Is it a bit like clicking on "listen again"?

John,

thanks for starting this one, some interesting views have been posted and more questions than answers.

Regards to all.

John

[dekenai]

Its a fair possibility that the last man to be killed will have been German as one American battery continued firing for some minutes ater the cease fire (its commander had a faulty watch).

"Der Kreig ist uber"

"Finie la guerre"

From my readings;

Ellison-last Brit ( was buried a few steps from Pvt J.Parr--a messenger, Aug 21 1914--the first Brit killed).

Last Canadian---Pvt George Price 38th NorthWest Inf Ban CEF--sniper at 10:58

Last allied-American-Pvt Henry Gunther- 10:59

Quote; "---The Brig Gen William Nicholson, ordered that there be "absolutley no let up" until 1100. Pvt Gunter and Sargeant Powell found themselves on a slope hugging the earth for its shallow protection. Along the crest Prussian machine gunners , knowing the end was imminent, eyed the advancing Americans with mingled disbelief and wariness.

SGT Powell never understood what compelled Henry Gunther to rise up and charge the enemy.---Gunther kept advancing bayonet fixed. The machine gunners reluctantly fired a 5 round burst ----"

Unquote; Persico, 11th month, 11th day, 11th hour

Quote from the diaries of Pvt Robert Cude;

"--The artillery didn't want to be saddled with spare shells and so right up to the minute fixed for the Armistice, they are pumping over shells as fast as they can. Jerry must have been having a great time but we are getting a little back, for jerry has lost his temper, l suppose.----During the afternoon, the German wireless makes a request of us to observe the terms of the Armistice, as guns of the 1st and 3rd Armies are still firing at points behind the lines"

Unquote

More from Persico;

"A German officer reported that two of his men killed by American artillery fire at 10:57-----"

Seconds before 11 o'clock, Australian troops near Mons crouched low to escape the withering hail of bullets from a machine gun. Exactly on the hour, a huge German rose alongside the gun, took of his helmet, bowed, turned, and walked off! An Australian signaller recalled a wounded German, jaw shot away with a wounded soldier on his back coming forward to surrender---" you know and it made me ready to cry....the stupidity of the whole thing"

"After 1100, a German Lieutenant Thoma, 19th Uhlans at Inor, 3.5 miles nth of Stenay, headed toward the American line to ask now that is was over, whether they required quarters fro their troops, The doughboys of Comp L, 356th regt, still uniformed of the cease fire, watch the Lt and shot him.

The Regt's comms lines had been severd by shell fire.

Col Robert Allen, commanding the Regt, explained . "the last elements of my commd ceased firing at approximatley 15 minutes before noon."

His report ended, "There were some casualties in my commd between 11 and 12:15, and there many more among the enemy, but l am unable to give a complete number."

That morning the the AEF 33rd Div, reported 284 casualities, inc 17 dead. The 89th Div; 300 casualties with 61 dead and 239 seriously wounded.

"As late as 4pm, an American COL named Mott received a telephone call from his French counterpart complaining of the failure of Americans to stop firing at Stenay-Beaumont and along the Meuse. The last order was not received by forward elements of the 2nd Div until 4:15pm.

The last recorded deaths of the Great War, the War to end all Wars, on the Western Front occcurred at midnight in Hamont, (Belgium), a train filled with German troops arriving from Antwerp was blown apart by a mine killing hundreds of German soldiers 13 hours after the Armistice.

General Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck, "the African Hindenburg" (undefeated in German East Africa) , finally learnt of his nations defeat, and he surrendered on the 23rd Nov, the last German Comd to yeild in the War.

AMEN

[baorbrat]

The last death to be caused by munitions from the Great War, has yet to happen.

[Paul Reed]

Persico's book is interesting, and he appears in our programme, but we could not confirm or find sources for some of the stories in his book, eg:

Seconds before 11 o'clock, Australian troops near Mons crouched low to escape the withering hail of bullets from a machine gun. Exactly on the hour, a huge German rose alongside the gun, took of his helmet, bowed, turned, and walked off! An Australian signaller recalled a wounded German, jaw shot away with a wounded soldier on his back coming forward to surrender---" you know and it made me ready to cry....the stupidity of the whole thing"

No Australian troops were at Mons on 11th November 1918.

[dekenai]

Paul

right again--l wonder if he meant Montbrehain? which is more likely---

otherwise it was the Brit Lancers and Canadians around Mons.

I've read his book a couple of times and his notes/ bibliography seem exhaustive. A couple of antecdotes l've read in other books and diaries. Are you able to verify any at all?

Good reading and sad.

dekenai

Is the Australian ABC likely to take up your Programme?

Is it available on DVD?

cheerio