J T Gray Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 I was lent this by a distant relation. She thinks it may relate to a cousin by the surname of Metson. The message on the back reads "To Tish and Topsy Xmas 1916 Albert". With the obvious exception in the back row, I immediately thought "Artillery!" from the cap badges, perhaps a gun team with the Corporal in breeches (is that the right term?) at the front. However, on scanning and having a close-up look the picture gets a bit more confusing. The cap badges are indeed all artillery, as far as I am aware. But the shoulder titles are a real grab-bag. There's an RGA one, one that is clearly RGA with extra tinwork above and below it, and a strange one that I can't make out but that doesn't fit either. Just to confuse matters, at least one man has nothing on his epaulettes at all. I've also scanned the sailor's hat tally as I knew someone would ask - it's HMS Ariel, by the looks. Is there any significance, do you think, in this mixture of badges, lanyards etc? I suspect some men are newer to the service than others, judging by the fact that some still have the stiffener in their cap, but other than that I'm struggling to make sense of it. Your help would be much appreciated! Many thanks, Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 The RGA is Royal Garrison Artillery - the other one is RGA with a T for Territoral above it and his county designation underneath. I cannot read it but it could be a number. The sailor is an odd one but the backdrop does look like the back of a british Victorian house so it may well have been taken in UK when they were all on leave. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigronhartley Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Hello Adrian, I would guess they are a group of Territorials belonging to the Royal Garrison Artillery. The three tier shoulder title T/RGA/ ?? (any chance of a clearer image ?), is probably on the uniform of a pre-war Territorial soldier whilst the RGA is on more recent recruits. Variations in attire and badges are very common on photos of this period. Hope this helps. Regards Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigronhartley Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Hello Adrian, Just had a look at 'Westlake', regarding the three tier shoulder title T/RGA/ ?? . The nearest I can make out are Lancashire or HomeCounties, any of these fit the geographical location of the subject of the photo ? Regards Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 I would reckon that the territorial designation on the shoulder title is "Lancashire". Are all the cap badges Arty? Group of friends or family from the same street? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Hi Adrian, could this be yer fella? He's the only Metson on the MICs that served with the RGA. The number 178935 (only 17 away from the above) belonged to a soldier KiA with the 280th Siege Battery RGA T/RGA/LANCASHIRE looks the most likely for the shoulder title. Cracking photo, certainly does look like a group of mates from the neighbourhood, cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 29 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Thanks for the feedback so far!. I'll try to answer the queries so far. The group on leave certainly makes sense. As far as I am aware Albert (or Walter! That MIC does look likely if he really was a Metson) was from Essex, so perhaps it reads Home Counties rather than Lancashire? I scanned the shoulder titles at 1200 dpi - I'll have a go at 2400, and see if it's any clearer but I suspect we are pushing the limits a bit trying to get more. The cap badges are all artillery - harder to see in the group pic than on the original, but there are some subtle differences. However a high-res scan shows these to be differences in angle and reflection, and they are all the same badge. Out of interest, other than the title what were the differences between the Royal, Royal Garrison,and Royal Field Artillery? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Out of interest, other than the title what were the differences between the Royal, Royal Garrison,and Royal Field Artillery? Adrian Adrian The RA at this period was divide into two distinct "corps": the Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery, which served the more mobile field guns, and the Royal Garrison Artillery, which served the heavier guns (but also included mountainn guns and AA guns). I like the idea of a group of mates on leave, but another possibility is a group on a training course. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 Adrian, I suspect a coastal battery, or maybe an AA group. HMS Ariel was converted to a minelayer in late 1916 early 1917 so the sailor could have been otherwise employed. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 I am inclined to Charles suggestion. The 178952 number would indicate someone who finalised his enlistment at the end of November 1917, so unless he is a Field Gunner in the photo who later transferred, not impossible, then the MIC is not his. Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 October , 2007 Share Posted 29 October , 2007 How about some sort of gunnery course? It would explain the possible mix of different types of gunner and the 'bue job' might have been on some form of secondment if the subject was training in some equipment etc that had dual service usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 30 October , 2007 Share Posted 30 October , 2007 I wonder if it isn't a signalling course of some kind. I don't think they would be using a sailor to teach gunnery, nor would he be taking a gunnery course from the RGA. Gunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 30 October , 2007 Share Posted 30 October , 2007 The sailor is a gunner, unlikely he would be on a signalling course, maybe helping them with the 4.7, his expertise could be the 12pdr maybe a QF shore battery in one of the estuary's. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 30 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2007 Can I bowl a googly/throw in a curveball? I've scanned the most obvious shoulder title at the highest resolution my scanner can go, and here it is. I'm not up on shoulder titles at all (you've probably guessed this already!), but it looks to me as though the brass "T over RGA" badge is surmounting a thinner, possibly cloth, title. I can't make out a whole word, but I can make out a few very suggestive letters, and they spell neither Lancs nor Home Counties. I'd be interested to see what anyone else can make of them, and I'll tell you later what I make so I don't bias the results. Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunboat Posted 30 October , 2007 Share Posted 30 October , 2007 It looks like Lancashire to me. From memory because of the of the sheer numbers of volunteers from northern mining and mill towns wasnt a number of men who signed up for army service recruited into Royal Naval Divisions. Could this explain why we have a sailor amid a group of artillerymen? As for breeches and lanyards unlike the RHA and RFA where all gunners were designated as mounted troops and equipped as thus The RGA were not considered mounted troops and most wore trousers and putees of course though like most army units there was still a massive reliance on horses either in ammunition columns or in towing guns and so the RGA would have a number of men equipped for mounted duties as are some of the men in this picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 31 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2007 It looks like Lancashire to me. I hate to disagree, but I just can't make it read Lancashire! I can see what looks like an E and an X next to each other, preceded by two curvaceous letters. Given that the left-hand edge of the title is a straight-up-and-down letter, I can only think of Essex. This may be wishful thinking on my part, being an Essex boy, but if it is this cousin then he probably was from Essex. Certainly this would make sense with the sailor and the suggestions as to a coastal battery (Essex has lots of coast, and much of it faces the continent). What confuses me, however, is what on earth the rest of the title might say in that case. There is something curvy after the X - an ampersand, perhaps? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nattyjack Posted 31 October , 2007 Share Posted 31 October , 2007 I hate to disagree, but I just can't make it read Lancashire! I can see what looks like an E and an X next to each other, preceded by two curvaceous letters. Given that the left-hand edge of the title is a straight-up-and-down letter, I can only think of Essex. This may be wishful thinking on my part, being an Essex boy, but if it is this cousin then he probably was from Essex. Certainly this would make sense with the sailor and the suggestions as to a coastal battery (Essex has lots of coast, and much of it faces the continent). What confuses me, however, is what on earth the rest of the title might say in that case. There is something curvy after the X - an ampersand, perhaps? Adrian would this maybe have been at one of the forts in essex ? Coalhouse or Tilbury spring to mind?? nattyjack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 31 October , 2007 Share Posted 31 October , 2007 How about Essex & Suffolk - worn by the Essex and Suffolk Royal Garrison Artillery on service dress tunics between 1908 and 1919. Gunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Garnett Posted 31 October , 2007 Share Posted 31 October , 2007 Couldn't it simply read 'ESSEX REGT'? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 31 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2007 Couldn't it simply read 'ESSEX REGT'? John Possible, John, but as the Essex Regiment and the RGA were different organisations entirely I would have thought unlikely. I'm with Mr Flory on this, unless someone has a better suggestion. The shape of the next two letters seems to agree. We know they are RGA, and with a likely Essex connection, it looks as though we may be getting somewhere... Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 31 October , 2007 Share Posted 31 October , 2007 Adrian is correct. The Essex RGA title reads just "ESSEX." Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 31 October , 2007 Share Posted 31 October , 2007 Is it possible that the RN man is the relative? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...&pagetitle= Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunboat Posted 1 November , 2007 Share Posted 1 November , 2007 Hmmm first I thought it Leicestershire, then Lancashire and I can see your point about seeing something like Essex but there seems to be too many letters after for it to be so. I shall retire gracefully and get my eyes tested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyes Posted 1 November , 2007 Share Posted 1 November , 2007 Never one to miss out on something as vague (and therefore, fun to take sides on) as this, I would go for the 'course photo' option. Not sure why except, together with the different yet related accoutrements ( and having myself been in a few), it has that feel about it. And for those trivia fans, as taken from a book (Three Corvettes I think), the proper timing for the firing of a Royal salute is, to pace slowly up and down repeating at a conversational speed, "If I was wasn't a Gunner, I wouldn't be here. Fire One! If I wasn't a Gunner, I wouldn't be here. Fire Two! To be repeated as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J T Gray Posted 5 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2007 Just to keep the pot boiling... I've been thinking over the weekend. If it is a battery group, why is the Corporal apparently in riding breeches? Similarly, if it is a training school group or a battery crew, why do they appear to be in a urban back yard? That looks like "backhouses" to me, rather than barracks. Maddening, isn't it? We've got several good possibilities but just enough uncertainties as well to leave lots of room for speculation. Or is that half the fun? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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