Could you refuse to be part of a firing squad ?

[PhilB]

You could use the same argument about the navy, but they chose to hang?

[Chris_Baker]

Members are respectfully reminded of Forum rules. Please do not allow this thread to stray into questions of morality or specific cases.

[PhilB]

I was wondering what the guidelines are on this topic. I`m clearer now. I think most members appreciate that we`re not discussing the rights and wrongs of capital punishment, still less individual cases.

[MartH]

One of the family tales of my Grandfather in the RMF police, is that he captured a soldier on the run in Amiens, who was later sentenced to death. They asked the battalion for volunteers for the shooting party, everybody stepped forward to a man.

I've often wondered if its true, and would they ask for volunteers, what happen if they said no to a man, was it staged managed? Family myths have to be so careful with them.

Regards

Mart

[Roxy]

I suspect that Mart is correct. The reluctance, or otherwise, of soldiers to be part of a firing party may have been dependant on whether or not they thought the sentence was deserved.

Just my twopence.

Roxy

[ian turner]

Re firing the blank - did the sergeant both load and eject the round? I presume so, otherwise the serviceman involved would surely have spotted the blank cartridge when it was ejected.

Ian

[Moonraker]

Re firing the blank - did the sergeant both load and eject the round? I presume so, otherwise the serviceman involved would surely have spotted the blank cartridge when it was ejected.

Ian

But, according to Mick D, above, by then the soldier would have realised from the recoil & sound whether or not it was a blank.

Moonraker

[Joan and Terry]

I cannot imagine any soldier being allowed to choose which order to obey,you were there to do as you were told,end of story,the rights or wrongs of the order did not enter into it.

Yes I was in the Forces.

Joan

[Gunboat]

Is there any documentary evidence of the use of blanks? I have read elsewhere speculation that it was never intended to fool the solider firing the weapon but to allow the group to believe that a certain number of that party had blank rounds so that so long as they kept quiet no one would ever have to own to firing the live rounds.

[Coldstreamer]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Sep 26 2007, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could use the same argument about the navy, but they chose to hang?

going off on a tangent (its my thread!) - who did the hanging ? Naval personel or "specialists" ?

[joseph]

"who did the hanging ? Naval personel or "specialists" ?"

If death by hanging was the finding of the convening authority, the Provost Marshal who is detailed by Warrant 'shall take the accused into his custody and safely keep him until he shall have been delivered in due course of law.' The sentence would be carried out on his ship by his own ships company under the supervision of the Provost Marshal.

The Convening Authority stipulated the manner in which the sentence was carried out.

Regards Charles

[Michael Johnson]

In the Napoleonic era, hanging was accomplished by hoisting the offender aloft, which probably meant death by strangulation unless it was a very fast jerky pull that would break the neck.

Given this, I wonder if in the 1914-18 period executions by hanging were carried out ashore?

[truthergw]

A public hangman might have been used in a civilian establishment? Was there a provision for execution at the peace time Naval prisons? The equivalent of Aldershot or Cowcaddens? Come to think of it, what did the army do in peacetime?

[joseph]

Kings Regulations and Admiralty Instruction 1913 Chapter XVII article 700a.

Execution of Sentence

700a. Death.- When sentence of death is to be executed upon any criminal, notice shall be previously given from the ship by a signal, and by firing a gun, upon which the Captains of all ships present shall summon their ships' companies upon deck to witness the punishment, and shall make known to them the crime for which it is about to be inflicted.

Extant during WW1

Regards Charles

[walrus]

Of course, even during the Great War, the Navy would have the advantage of having a Ship's carpenter (and mates) certainly capable of building a working temporary gallows (with drop) and, if the public hangman was not available, then the published tables of height/weight/drop length ratios should certainly be (possibly some guidelines to procedure too) - not as neat and efficient as the professional , but probably servicable.

Tom t W

[PhilB]

I thought yardarms did the job?

[ian turner]

But, according to Mick D, above, by then the soldier would have realised from the recoil & sound whether or not it was a blank.

Moonraker

Yes, but observing the cartridge would end any doubt. I am still curious to hear an answer to my question. I can remember hearing that the sergeant loaded each rifle with the firer not knowing if it was a live or blank round, but I cannot recall the procedure afterwards.

Ian

[Tom Morgan]

I believe that as a general rule the firing-party didn't eject spent cartridges from their rifles themselves. They were marched in to take up position and the correct places for them to stand were marked by loaded rifles lying ready on the ground. After releasing safety-catches and firing the volley, they were required to put the rifles down again and march off. I would hazard a guess that they might have then been made to stand in their ranks out of sight while someone emptied the rifles, identifying any man who hadn't fired.

Tom

[PhilB]

Has anyone seen written instructions that some rounds were to be blanks? It never seemed to worry the Navy or Civil society that the flogger or hangman (or hangmen if several men hauled him up) was/were identifiable and I can`t see that the Army would be any more sensitive. In short, was the loading of some blanks official policy?

[walrus]

As I believe someone mentioned earlier, the idea of a number of rifles were loaded with blank rounds was a traditional story put to allow the members of the firing party to salve their conciences with the belief that "there were blank rounds, but others were lucky enough to get them".

I suspect that it's one of those 'legends' which everyone directly involved wants to believe.

Tom t W

[Tom Morgan]

In an earlier discussion not too long ago, a Forum pal quoted the preparatory orders issued by the army during the trials of Irish nationalists in 1916. (I can't find the posting now). The orders were prepared in the event of the accused being found guilty and being sentenced to death and included detailed instructions for executions by shooting. If I remember correctly the instructions included the use of blank rounds. Perhaps other pals will be able to confirm whether or not my memory is right in this.

Tom

[PhilB]

Maybe, if done regimentally, it was left to the discretion of the battalion CO or adjutant?

[George Armstrong Custer]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Sep 26 2007, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could use the same argument about the navy, but they chose to hang?

They did - until, that is, the extremely rare occasion when it was an Admiral who was up for execution. The case of Admiral John Byng in 1757 is a well-known cause celebre of it's time, but as this thread is about the mechanics and procedures of military execution, I'll confine my comments to how the Navy managed an Admiral's execution by firing party as shown in the painting below:

After sentence, it was decided that Byng would be shot aboard his flagship The Monarch. Initially this was ordered to take place upon the fiorecastle, but this was deemed ignominious for someone of Byng's rank, and after petition it was ordered that he be shot upon his own quarterdeck. The quarterdeck was accordingly spread with sawdust and a cushion placed for the condemned Admiral to kneel on. A detachment of ships marines were assigned as the firing party. I have not been able to discover if one or more of their muskets was loaded with a charge but no ball - the 18th-century equivalent of a blank round. Byng was given the option of whether or not to be blindfolded, and initially declined one. However he was advised by his friends that eye contact might intimidate the marines of the firing party and prevent them from takling aim properly. He is reported to have thrown his hat on the deck, knelt on a cushion, tied one white handkerchief over his eyes and dropped the other as a signal for his executioners, who fired a volley. Of the six balls fired by the marines (unless one was charged without a ball, of course), one ball missed; one passed through the heart; and four others struck different parts of the body. The Admiral sank to the deck, dead. Thus did the Royal Navy execute one of its Admirals, it presumably being deemed bad form to string him up from his own yard arm as those condemned of lesser rank would have been.

ciao,

GAC

[Muerrisch]

I am not into the subject of executions ..... I find the topic unsavoury; but in the course of arguing with those who believe that all Great War executions were unjust, I have searched all my considerable references regarding army procedures. They are seemingly mute at the top level: Manual Military Law, KR, Field Service Regs and Army Orders, such that I suspect that arrangements were made ad hoc by formations further down the chain. This might account for variations in practice and procedure ..... indeed, as the subject is so tacky, one suspects that it might have been passed well down the food chain for the [literally] gory details.

Should any Pal have hard evidence on ORDERS as opposed to anecdote for blank rounds, time of execution, composition of firing squad etc, they would be of interest to many.

As for me, I have popped into the thread and will now pop out, as [like the senior hierarchy] the less I know the more I like it.

And can I remind newish Pals that the more general subject of Shot at Dawn per se is totally proscribed hereon, and provokes great wrath and lightning bolts?

[healdav]

A public hangman might have been used in a civilian establishment? Was there a provision for execution at the peace time Naval prisons? The equivalent of Aldershot or Cowcaddens? Come to think of it, what did the army do in peacetime?

Certainly during WW2 it was normal practice for the public executioner to execute military prisoners.

Pierpoint talks about this in his memoirs. He carried out several executions for the US army using their procedures (but not nooses), and he didn't think much of them. Barbarous, he called them.

I have a vague feeling that at one time there was a naval execution shed in each of the dockyards, but I may be wrong.