Under age service: 12 & 13 year olds on the Somme

[NigelS]

If this is true, how on earth did they manage to get through the medicals without being discovered?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...-World-War.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...-World-War.html

NigelS

[Ice Tiger]

Nigel

I'm rather concerned that The Sun are reporting "Remembrance Sunday, November 11th"

I hope that this statement doesn't show the depth of research in the article.

Andy

[Paul Reed]

Richard Van Emden is a good researcher, and I am presuming they have reported this wrongly, as there is no George Maher in the regiment stated.

[Graham Stewart]

We certainly know of under age lads serving, but sometimes I really wonder if what is being said is the truth. After anguished parents confronted the government about under-age enlistments there was a general round-up of youngsters in 1915 many of whom were discharged, while others, not wishing to return were held in Holding Battalions until they reached the age for active service.

Army Council Instructions were very clear about not recruiting under age boys and I find it very difficult to see how a boy aged 12 could enlist at this time. Certainly pre-war their was no problem with "boys" enlisting at that age as Drummer Boys, although many were infact the son's of serving soldiers rather than direct enlistments, as you still required the approval of a parent or guardian to enlist. Since the release of service records on Ancestry evidence does show "boys" attempting to enlist only to be discharged under KR's for falsifying their ages, which in itself was an 'offence'. This resulted in those under age lads who escaped the 1915 round-up forfeiting their medals on being discovered, only to have them reinstated at a later date.

If the gentleman in question says he is a boy veteran - then under questioning he should remember a good bit about his time in the UK and he may also have a service record.

[Stephen White]

I read this article yesterday while having a coffee, I did seriously wonder how this could be possible especially considering the small size of one individual mentioned in the article.

Stephen

[Tony Lund]

On July 21st 1916, Huddersfield’s Fred Kaye was discharged from the Army for making a mis-statement about his age when he enlisted on February 2nd 1915. At that time he had told the Army he was eighteen years and three hundred and thirty-one days old. But his birth certificate subsequently proved that he was born on December 10th 1900; making him just fourteen years old when he enlisted. He was described as a millhand who was five feet four and three-quarter inches tall, and he had served for one year and one hundred and seventy-three days before being discharged.

So far as Holmfirth is concerned, some boys were sent back to bases in the United Kingdom until they reached nineteen years of age, but some continued to serve with their units, apparently without any problems, but not as young as the ones mentioned in the article.

Tony.

[PBI]

I have come across a newspaper article in an November 1916 Issue of the Mirror entitled "Enlisted at 12" the article dealt with a Private S.Lewis (Lewes) of the East Surreys,who was detected as serving as a 12 year old on the Somme.I obtained a copy of this article from the National Newpaper Archive at Collingdale.I lent it out and never recieved it back.

[eltoro1960]

Certainly in TF formations it was possible to join quite legally at 14 and a number of these lads went to the front with their battalion.

In this photograph of the 8th Royal Scots taken July 1914 you can see a number of young lads in evidence. Most of them went to France in November, 1914.

One of them in particular James Marchbank was born June,1900 he served right through the war winning the MM in 1918 as runner when he was till 17. This picture was taken in France in early 1915 near Bois Garnier.

I would imagine there were many like him throughout the army.

John

[Northern Soul]

The report seems to use the same phraseology in both newspapers, so I assume it has been lifted more or less verbatim from Mr. van Emden's work. I quote:

"The child, said to be too short to see over the edge of a trench, was recalled by another under-age soldier, George Maher, who was only 13 when he was sent to the Somme during the First Wold War.

Mr Maher had told a recruiting officer that he was 18 to enable him to join the 2nd King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment in 1917. But his true age was revealed when he broke down in tears under shellfire and was hauled before an unsympathetic officer."

Interestingly the 2nd King's Own were in Salonika at this time, having moved there in Autumn, 1915.

In a previous thread concerning under-age soldiers I have had cause to question the due dilligence of any research done to confirm stories of this nature.

Andy.

[Ron Clifton]

"If this is true ..." just about sums it up.

There are documented cases of 14-year-old boys serving, e.g. Pte J Condon of one of the Irish regiments, and Rfn Valentine Baker who is buried (IIRC) at Essex Farm. Granted that boys often started work at 12 and some were well-developed for their age, such as the lad mentioned by Tony Lund, but personally I find it difficult to believe that a lad of 12 or 13, unless he went out as a drummer or bandsman which is possible, could have persuaded the military authorities that he was old enough or physically strong enough to serve in the ranks.

It is also difficult to avoid the conclusion that such a lad would be the weak link in any platoon. However much his mates might try to cover up for him or make allowances, he could not be expected to perform as an older man, or even an older boy of say 17, would perform.

With several million men and boys joining up in 1914-1918 it is quite possible that a few minnows of 12 or 13 got through the net, but not, I suspect, very many. Pte Condon's claim to be the youngest in the Army has stood for many years, if not decades, and I would be sceptical about claims for even younger men which are only emerging now - especially in a paper that thinks Wed 11 Nov is Remembrance Sunday!

Ron

[NigelS]

Found this in The Times of Tuesday, Jun 27, 1916 relating to the actions taken with those found to be under age

NigelS

[dycer]

Just to add to John's post about James Marchbank,from his Diary.

July 1916

1st-Battle of the Somme.Took rations up to H.Q. at Bonty Redoubt,got lost until daybreak.

5th-Been taking rations up to Halte and Fricourt,plenty dead.

6th-Left Battle H.Q.,went to Hielly.

10th-Left Hielly,went to Battle H.Q. again,transport in field near Bois-de Jailles.

12th-Shifted from Bois-de-Jailles to a field on Bray-Mauelte road near Caseaulle Farm.Took rations up at night at Helte near Mametz on a bicycle.

15th-Battle H.Q. shifts to White Trench,took rations up every night.

19th-At night time while taking up rations I met my Brother who's guns were in action in Mametz.

20th-Left Caseaulle farm and went on field on the Albert Road at night.Went on to a camp near Dernicourt.

21st-I met Bertie Scott(who is now reported missing).

22nd-I left camp near Dernicourt and entrained at Mericourt,arrived at Hangest.I rode on a wagon for a distance of 4 kilometres to a quite nice spot near Piequinny,named Yreux.During my rest here enjoyed bathing in the afternoon in the ponds.

George

[matthew lucas]

has not the whole John condon age thing been under scrutiny for some time now?

matt

[J Banning]

Richard Van Emden is a good researcher, and I am presuming they have reported this wrongly, as there is no George Maher in the regiment stated.

Hi Paul - just spoke to Richard and he tells me that George joined up using his mother's maiden name - hence why you won't find him in the regimental records (as George Maher anyway).

George said that there was another boy that was definitely younger than him - knowing that George was 13, the papers have automatically assumed that the other lad was 12.

For all those who want to know more I would recommend Richard's 'Boy Soldiers of the Great War'.

Cheers

[PBI]

http://www.cwgc.co.uk/

Please Scroll down until you come to the John Condon "Myth" Link...the original research regrding Condon was carried out by Aurel Sercu.

[Northern Soul]

Hi Paul - just spoke to Richard and he tells me that George joined up using his mother's maiden name - hence why you won't find him in the regimental records (as George Maher anyway).

George said that there was another boy that was definitely younger than him - knowing that George was 13, the papers have automatically assumed that the

Jeremy,

Was Maher the correct spelling of his surname, and do you know where he came from. I can't find a suitable George Maher on the 1911 Census. If his family can be found in the census then it should be possible to identify his mother's maiden name etc.

Still won't explain the reference to the Somme though, assuming the 2/King's Own was his unit.

Cheers.

Andy.

[NigelS]

He couldn't have died in England or Wales in 1999 (as reported in the papers' articles) either as the GRO records on Ancestry (unless there's a rare error ) only return two records: a George Maher & Henry George Maher but, as the entry number and other details are identical, they're both for the same man. He can't be our man though: his date of birth makes him just a little to young to have served on the Somme or anywhere else in WW1, the 15 march 1913!

Maher doesn't look like an English name, possibly of Irish or Scottish descent?

NigelS

[dycer]

In the modern times it is easy for Daily Papers to glamorize facts which were got round,but were legally wrong 90 years ago.

If a Boy wished to serve his Country,90 years ago,how can we mock his endeavour?

Experienced Hands tried to curb their endeavour,either by Parental Control,Parliamentary Control or a combination of both.

The small pre-War Army expanded to deal with a modern Foe,whether rightly or wrongly is open to debate.Does the British Press celebrate German sacrifice at a young age,in an attempt to impose its will?

If the British Press is to be taken seriously,it should include youths of all the warring Nations.

George

[J Banning]

Jeremy, Was Maher the correct spelling of his surname, and do you know where he came from. I can't find a suitable George Maher on the 1911 Census. If his family can be found in the census then it should be possible to identify his mother's maiden name etc.

Still won't explain the reference to the Somme though, assuming the 2/King's Own was his unit.

Cheers.

Andy.

I have no idea Andy. I'm seeing Richard this week and if I have time (as I'm working away) then I'll post a response.

Cheers

[Graham Stewart]

Whether it's my age or something else, but as I get older I get very cynical of these claims of being "boy" soldiers who appear in these late years. All seem to be veterans of the Somme, but very little information seems to come forward from them on the more mundane life of soldiering.

As for the boys in the band, well I believe "Instructions for Mobilisation 1914" instruct that they be left behind at Regimental Depots, which the majority probably did. As you probably all know the task of the band on active service is to act as stretcher bearers, a task not really suited to 12year old drummer boys.

A good friend of mine and researcher followed a similar claim some years ago from a family of man who claimed to have served on the Western Front but despite all of my friends efforts to prove this to be fact, the end conclusion was sadly the opposite with the gentleman only serving during the final weeks of the war and then the Army of Occupation.

Even these days "all is not as it seems" - watch any documentary on the Falkland's War and you will see your's truly here, identified by my name on the back of my flight deck vest, removing the protective caps from the sidewinder missiles of our squadron Sea Harriers readying them for action, with a fine commentary. Alas however I wasn't there, the film was shot the year before during ramp trials in the Arctic, but they hadn't nothing "warry" enough for later documentaries so used old film.

[Northern Soul]

He couldn't have died in England or Wales in 1999 ......................

As I understand it he died in Australia - hence no mention in the UK records. However, given his age at death the only candidate for a birth would be a George Maher whose birth was registered in the Preston R.D. in the September 1/4 of 1903. However, according to another reference I found his d.o.b. was 20th May, 1903 so either his birth was registered late or it isn't him. As I say, I can't find a George Maher of the right age in the 1911 Census either - no one even close.

Andy.

[high wood]

326177 Pte Alfred Woolnough, Cambridgeshire Regiment. The lad certainly looks to be underage but the 1911 census reveals that he was born in Cambridge in 1898.

[west coast]

reading through these posts it has been noted on quite a few occasions "how could he/they get past the medical and recruiting officers", i was wondering if there was any way they could have got somebody to stand in for them at the 'interviews' . has anything ever been recorded regardind this.

mike.

[PBI]

No real mystery as to how many underage Lads got into the Forces back then.as the recruting Sgt was given a cash award for every man he signed up,and as for the Medical i would have thought it would have been just a minor formality in the early months of the War.If you were big enough you were good enough.

can anyone give me any further info on another underage please.

Private H.I.Rochford

5th Battalion South Staffs,i believe he landed in France while he was still 15 years old,and was wounded in May 1915.

[Northern Soul]

can anyone give me any further info on another underage please.

Private H.I.Rochford

5th Battalion South Staffs,i believe he landed in France while he was still 15 years old,and was wounded in May 1915.

Probably was 15. Birth registered in Walsall R.D. June 1/4 1899 as Harold John Rochford. Went to France 5.3.15, so between 15yr 9mo and 15yr 11mo.