Red Cross Archive - report by Peter Barton

[ph0ebus]

It seems to me that while wonderful news, this is potentially a far, far more complex situation than the reportage suggests. To be meaningful this is going to take a lot of cross-referencing with CWGC records, include post-War reburial details, in order to work out if an ID in the Red Cross records can be tied to an individual unknown CWGC burial. IF the Germans say, "We buried Brown, Jones and Smith at Position X," and the CWGC has, "three sets of remains were found at Position X, one of which was Brown, and another Smith, but the other one can't be identified," then all well and good, but what if there is no record of Position X at all, let alone whether anything was found there? Logic says that some robust enough identifications almost certainly will be made as a result of this, but it's not going to be easy.

I gather this may potentially drum up a significant amount of business for archaeologists in the affected areas. This of course is not even looking at whether newly identified areas containing burials (if any) are on public or private land, etc., so we may add lawyers to the list too.

Pandora, party of 1, your table is ready...

-Daniel

[J Banning]

I work with Peter and having told him about some of the GWF reaction we thought it best if I post something about the find. Peter will be compiling something which will give a lot more information than has been previously released. One of the problems with the media is the limited time given to explain the myriad applications that this new data can be used for. A two minute radio interview is simply not long enough to explain fully, neither is a column in a newspaper.

Peter will put something together in the very near future which will explain in much more detail what the archive contains and its potential uses. It should answer a lot of the questions that have been asked on the various threads running on this and other forums.

I will post a link to this information when this is done.

[gazfromnuneaton]

I work with Peter and having told him about some of the GWF reaction we thought it best if I post something about the find. Peter will be compiling something which will give a lot more information than has been previously released. One of the problems with the media is the limited time given to explain the myriad applications that this new data can be used for. A two minute radio interview is simply not long enough to explain fully, neither is a column in a newspaper.

Peter will put something together in the very near future which will explain in much more detail what the archive contains and its potential uses. It should answer a lot of the questions that have been asked on the various threads running on this and other forums.

I will post a link to this information when this is done.

Thanx Jeremy - I welcome Peter's note to clarify this matter, but why is it that essentially a "good news" item has to be defended in the first place? Does it matter who claims to have found this archive first or why have a big debate on what it may or may not contain. The fact is, ANY information will be useful and Peter should be congratulated on raising the profile of these archives. Would they have been "refound" someday? Maybe, yes. But it takes someone of Peter Barton's integrity and status to get the item on the Beeb and to put pressure on the digitization of the records, and I for one applaud him.

Keep up the good work Peter & Jeremy,

Garry

[Graham Stewart]

Garry,

I doubt it's a question of who found what, it's a question of why the IRC have been in denial over their existence for all of these years. Work on these records could have began years ago and for those of us who would like to use them, you wonder if you'll still be alive and kicking by the time they reach the public domain and for that reason alone I'm peeved.

I'm more than pleased that at last they're coming to the surface and only hope I manage to see some of the POW stuff that may be there.

[Maxsparky]

Some further information from an extract from my local paper:-

"A spokeswoman for the Red Cross said the archives were not kept secret but that she could understand if they were not widely known about in the United Kingdom. She said the Red Cross is starting to put the records onto digital storage this autumn, which it aims to complete by 2014. Anyone wishing to inquire about the records can call the Red Cross in Geneva on 00 41 22 73 46 001 and ask for the archives department."

[J Banning]

I work with Peter and having told him about some of the GWF reaction we thought it best if I post something about the find. Peter will be compiling something which will give a lot more information than has been previously released. He will put something together in the very near future which will explain in much more detail what the archive contains and its potential uses. It should answer a lot of the questions that have been asked on the various threads running on this and other forums. I will post a link to this information when this is done.

Took a bit longer than planned due to other work constraints but please find below a very brief précis of the work of the Red Cross in WW1 that has been compiled by Peter. He has asked me to post this on the GWF and other forums so as people have a better idea of what the ICRC records contain.

A much more detailed explanation will be placed on the internet soon and I will post a link to that when it is added.

Enjoy the read!

Jeremy

A very brief précis of the work of the Red Cross in WW1

The Red Cross is clearly best known for its remarkable 150 years in assisting prisoners-of-war, internees, refugees and the displaced. With the organisation at the forefront of development, international humanitarian law began its gestation in 1864. As a result of the varying natures of conflict during the latter half of 19th and early 20th century a framework had substantially been developed before 1914, with important comprehensive agreements on human rights and the treatment of prisoners being forged as a result of the Geneva Convention of 19 July 1906 and the Hague Convention of 18 October 1907. In August 1914, however, there was still no satisfactory structure for the kind of global conflict that was about to unfold. Such a framework had first to be constructed and then constantly adapted as hostilities deepened and widened. Ultimately, the ICRC were to become the main arbitration and conciliation service, as well as the registrars par excellence.

Between September 1914 and the summer of 1920 information from the German Zentralnachweisebüro – Central Information Bureau –arrived at the ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross – known at the time simply as ‘The Agency’) in Geneva daily in the form of lists, each drawn up according to nationality. Once copied (and the copies carefully checked), the originals were bound into Registres, ledgers of 200 pages each. None are yet digitized, so the researcher examines the actual documents received from Berlin. The ‘English’* Registres, which incorporate the records of troops of the ‘Imperial’ nations, run to over 43,000 pages, each page containing between 15 and 35 individual entries. Every name also has its own index card. It is these ledgers and cards that today’s ICRC archivists scrutinise when answering enquiries about First World War prisoners.

Western Front information was collected by German troops in the field, passed on via the military hierarchy to regional Nachweisebüro (Bavarian, Prussian etc.) to the Zentralnachweisebüro in Dorotheenstrase, Berlin. It was passed from here to Geneva, and from Geneva to the rest of the world. Eastern Front data was passed through the ICRC offices in Copenhagen. The Zentralnachweisebüro was a colossal organization specifically set up to deal with all facets of documentation regardless of nationality or political affiliation, i.e. for both Central Powers and Entente troops.

Through these documents it is potentially possible to trace not only the movements of an individual surviving British soldier from first capture to the conclusion of the war, i.e. from battle to prison camp etc. One will also find information on the death and burial of casualties, both in the field and in captivity. The nature of woundings too are often noted, as are causes of death (again, on the battlefield and in captivity), and information on hospitalization incorporates both injury and illness. Notation of unit, rank, age, next-of-kin and relevant address is standard. Religion is frequently noted. In addition, a large collection of boxed loose documents complement the Registres.

Note: information derived from the Zentralnachweisebüro is that which had been collected and collated by German troops. It cannot include information about British troops who were injured or who died within Allied lines or in Allied care. This was the responsibility of the relevant Army.

During the period that the Agency were receiving lists from Berlin, every page in the Registres was numbered at the time of its arrival; no gaps in this sequence have yet been identified. However, this does not mean that the entire German inventory of collected information resides in Geneva, for there is no way of knowing whether some lists were,

a. never compiled

b. lost in transit en route from the front lines to intermediate regional Nachweisebüro, and finally to Berlin

c. destroyed

d. not passed on to Geneva by the Zentralnachweisebüro.

e. incomplete

If lists made at the front were, for example, not passed on, no-one in Geneva or elsewhere would have been any the wiser. What can be said is that the existing lists are the originals upon which all copies disseminated to authorities around the globe were based. Information passed both ways through Geneva – Allied information on German prisoners and dead headed east at the same time as German data headed west. In the case of the British (incorporating all Commonwealth nations), one copy was sent to the War Office, and three to the British Red Cross.

The Germans employed five list categories. Totenlisten (deaths) and Gräberlisten (graves) relating to ‘English’* casualties could only be produced as a result of actions where an attempted penetration of an opposing line had taken place. For example, a small incursion such as a trench raid that sustained casualties, a failed ‘minor’ enterprise such as the Aubers and Fromelles actions of 1915 and 1916, a failed ‘major’ enterprise such as the Battle of Cambrai in November 1917, and grand (initially) successful offensive German endeavours such as the spring offensives of 1918 where vast numbers of Allied troops fell into enemy hands, both dead and alive. The ICRC lists ONLY offer information on soldiers, living or dead, who were in German hands. Those researching German individuals will find details in files collated by the Entente. The other three categories are Gefangenenlisten (prisoners), Lazarettlisten (hospitalizations) and Nachlasslisten (soldiers effects).

Listing and therefore notification by the Germans of an enemy soldier’s movement (between hospitals and camps) and health was standard practice. This information was collected solely to be passed on to the Red Cross in Geneva, so that they in turn might pass it on to the relevant authorities elsewhere. However, should a family have made a direct enquiry with Geneva, they would receive a direct notification from the Agency itself. Detail can be exhaustive. A prisoners might, for example, have been wounded when captured, been hospitalized, recovered, been transferred to a camps, become ill (on perhaps more than one occasion), been transferred between camps, or died in captivity. In such a case the same name would appear on several categories of list. If he subsequently died, the name would then appear on a Totenliste. He may even have an individual death notice containing a detailed account of the illness, cause and precise time of death, who was with him, the possessions he held, and the burial. The Registres may thus be employed to create a narrative of a soldier’s condition and movements from the moment of his captivity. Possessions might include money, letters, photographs etc., and also the soldier’s ID tag – all these were sent by the Germans to Geneva and ultimately returned to the family.

The Registre collection for all nations contains approximately 650,000 pages in total. In addition there are 7 million index cards and more than 350 linear metres of associated documentation.

To put the holdings in context: The complete resource is one of the greatest archives on earth. Although the WW1 collection is in itself colossal it represents only a little over 1.5% of the whole ICRC resource, which of course has been continuing to gather information to the present day. Extrapolating further, one finds that despite their running to tens of millions of entries, the entire ‘British Empire-related’ material in the WW1 collection only comprises approximately 7% of that archive. The resource therefore reveals what the term World War truly means: there are few numbers and few statistics, but millions of names...... names with a host of associated detail, much of it possibly unique. Studying in Geneva is therefore a sobering experience, and excellent for the adjustment of perceptions. Finally, it is worth considering that WW1 was somewhat overshadowed by the conflict of 1939-45. The ICRC resource for this period is far, far bigger still.

© Peter Barton

9 November 2009

*The troops of all countries of the British Empire as it existed between 1914 and 1920 are frequently collectively (but not individually) listed in German files under the title of ‘English’.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Jeremy,

Many thanks to you and Peter for the update and in-depth explanation. Having had the wonderful opportunity to work with some of this material, I know what a terrific source of information it is. We don’t yet realise the full impact it will have.

V.

[J Banning]

Many thanks for the response Victoria. Quite unbelievable that you are the only one to respond! It would appear no one else seems to understand the importance of the archive, even when they are given details. The same info on the WFA forum has elicited just one post.

I should add that an even more detailed explanation is now available via the All-Party Parliamentary War Graves and Battlefields Group website: http://www.wargravesheritage.org.uk/records.html

Peter has compiled a free 48-page report to explain the significance of the archive. It is available via the All Party website or via HERE.

[roel22]

Quite unbelievable that you are the only one to respond! It would appear no one else seems to understand the importance of the archive, even when they are given details. The same info on the WFA forum has elicited just one post. HERE.

Jeremy, perhaps you should consider the lack of questions as a compliment: your post may be so clear no additional info is needed...

I guess we're all -impatiently- waiting for the documents to be digitized...

Roel

[ianw]

Jeremy,

Perhaps you shouldn't be too surprised that there is usually a lag between the posting of even important news and the responses to it. Unfortunately many of us have a thing called a job and another time consuming thing called a family which conspire to keep us rather busy.

However, a large number of us have been keeping a weather eye on news about the Red Cross archive since Peter announced its importance with no little fanfare a few months back.

I agree that it is vastly important as it will shed a lot of light on the fate of men who disappeared from the sight of their own side into the maw of oblivion that was the Great War. The prospect of detailed knowledge of their fates and even the establishment of where their remains ended up is hugely important.

[ianw]

Jeremy,

Ignoring the difficulty of finding time to respond to posts even when one wants to, it is very easy to miss items especially when they are tacked on as an afterthought to existing threads. You state that it is "quite unbelievable" that Forum members have not responded to your posting and go on to suggest that "no one ... understands the importance of the archive, even when they are given details". This is a bit harsh in my opinion. For example, I would suggest that all the Forum members with an interest in Fromelles will be aware to some degree of the implications of the Red Cross Archive.

As Roel says, I am sure that many forum members will read your comments and follow the very useful link you kindly provided to the more detailed report but not be minded to make a formal comment. That is often the nature of this Forum. The recognition of importance can be a "slow-burn" process.

[KevinBattle]

Many thanks for the response Victoria. Quite unbelievable that you are the only one to respond! It would appear no one else seems to understand the importance of the archive, even when they are given details. The same info on the WFA forum has elicited just one post.

Took a bit longer than planned due to other work constraints

No one questions that the dissemination of the ICRC archives is important, but you have taken from March till mid November to update us "in the very near future" to use your own phrase.

As you note, work constraints and other matters can absorb much of our time. In particular, posting just on the eve of 11th November could be the reason for slower than usual responses, as Pals on this Forum could have been engaged on Remembrance activities, having despaired of any response "in the very near future"!!

I have recently posted regarding the progress with these Red Cross records on another thread, so it is not an issue that has been forgotten, just that other issues, such as those affecting posting an update from you, have intervened.

It's not an attack, just a defence to the tone of your remark (within 2 days of posting) that it is "unbelievable" and that "no one else seems to understand the importance of the archive, even when they are given details." To take over 7 months for a response and then to complain that you haven't had much response is a bit rich.

Enough said, let's get on with the really important information, progress with releasing ICRC information. Is this likely to be available PRIOR to it being digitised and before 2014? I do hope that some of the records can be made available, even if it is digital photographs of, say, the Totenlisten for the CWGC to attempt to cross reference to recovered (or unknown) grave sites. That alone may significantly reduce the number of "Unknowns" in CWGC cemeteries.

Please don't confuse a lack of instant responses with a lack of interest - after all, we haven't assumed that to be the case of non responsefrom you for 7 months!