2nd Lt Terence Hume Langrishe, Irish Guards - 5 years a 2nd Lt

[corisande]

I have been researching him because he later appeared with a "special appointment" in Ireland in 1920, an am trying to understand the man

Terence Hume Langrishe, later 6 baronet of Knocktopher, was a contemporary of John Kipling and is with him in a photo of 6 Irish Guards 2nd Lts just before Kipling's death

My notes on Langrishe, including the Kipling photo are - click this link

Langrishe appears to have "stuck" at 2nd Lt a long time. As is well know Kipling was promoted Lt at around the the time of his death.

1915 Jan 23. Irish Guards, Terence Hume Langrishe to be Second Lieutenant (on probation).

1915 Dec 9. Second Lieutenant (on probation) Terence Hume Langrishe to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 9th December, 1915

1920 Mar. Resigned his commission as 2nd Lt

1920 Sep 22. Terence Hume Langrishe, late 2nd Lt., I. Gds., to be temp. 2nd Lt. whilst specially empld.

1920 Dec 15. Temp. 2nd Lt. T. H. Langrishe (2nd Lt., ret.) relinquishes his commn. on ceasing to be empld., and retains the rank of 2ndLt.

I have been unable to see why he was 2nd Lt the whole war.

He had an interesting personal life being engaged to Barbara Cartland, who broke off their engagement after the events of Bloody Sunday in Dublin in Nov 1920

Can anyone add anything on Langrishe

[charlesmessenger]

I agree, it is odd. It may be that the Irish Guards did not think him worthy of promotion to Lt, although they did approve of an end to his probationary period, but some time after his contemporaries. It is significant that he is popsted out of 2 IG just over two weeks before Loos. Perhaps he had personal problems and was put on the 3rd Irish Guards books while he sorted them out. His service was thus frozen. That he went for pilot training is perhaps an indication that he was not happy in the Irish Guards. I suppose his personal file at the TNA is not available. Maybe 1 & 2 IG war diaries might reveal something?

Charles M

[Moriaty]

If you search Langrishe under "war in the air" there is a posting by Mooncoin about Terence's brother, Hercules Ralph Langrishe.

Moincoin wrote" His brother Terence Hume Langrishe was a officer in the Irish Guards. He gets two mentions in Kipling's history of the 1st Bn. I have a later record of him as 1st Lieutenant ( Flying Officer ) in 106 Squadron RAF ( Ireland )."

Moriaty

[corisande]

Charles

Thanks for the input. His file is not at TNA . Never seen a man of that "class" serving the whole war at 2nd Lt

Moriarty

Thanks, I had read that thread. If you look at my notes on Terence Hulme Langrishe, you will see all his RAF record. Moincoin is presumably from that part of the world, Moincoin in Kilkenny

Normally "On probation" takes about 6 months, and a year later the chap should be a Lt.

I could not find anything in LG about loss of seniority, a notice of that sort often appearing when an officer looses seniority for whatever reason

[Guest]

The main difference between Langrishe and Kipling's group is the type of Commission; Langrishe is shown in the May 1915 Army List under the Regulars of the 1st Bn with no annotations (2nd Bn was then the Reserve Bn) Notably the Officer immediately above him (2 Lt D C Parsons) has Special Reserve after his name.. Kipling and over 30 other subalterns were Special Reserve commissions in August 1914 (probationary 2nd Lts) later confirmed as 2nd Lts on 11th Nov 1915 and on the same day promoted to Lt. The Promotions to Lt were backdated to June and July (two batches of Officers) meaning roughly 30 of them were all promoted to Lt 15 months after joining with the effective dates 11 and 10 months after joining.

If we applied the same time frame to Langrishe, he might have expected to be gazetted Lt 15 months after his probationary Commission of 23 Jan 1915, i.e in March 1916 backdated effective date to Nov-Dec 1915. I note he was at least confirmed as a 2 Lt in Dec 1915 but not promoted. On this date the Irish Guards were still flush with 2 Lts. I suspect the differences in initial treatment are almost certainly to do with the larger groups being Special Reservists. Thereafter I suspect the matter of personal performance would be the main explanation why he stagnated at that rank.

From the very small number of mentions in the diary and history, he and one other were transferred from 2nd Bn to 1st Bn immediately prior to Loos and then left with the transport details with two others (Lts) as 'contingencies'. Both the 1st and 2nd Battalions were flush with Officers in Aug 1915 when the Guards Div was formed, and the movement of Officers between the various battalions within Regiments was quite common - simply a reflection of the local effects of casualties on each battalion. That said, to be in the rear with the gear while both battalions fought in their first actions within the Guards Division suggest they were the weakest candidates for the leadership task ahead. Immediately after the 2nd Bn losses at Loos, Langrishe and four others were sent from the 1st Bn to the 2nd Bn (3rd Oct 1915 - 1st Bn War Diary confirms). Thereafter Langrishe disappears from the history.

Having recently 'mapped' the Irish Guards' subalterns commissioning data from the London Gazette, it is worth noting that the Gazette made dozens of errors. I have nearly completed mapping the whole Guards Div and there are scores of corrections and subsequent amendments in the commissioning dates. My take-away is that the LG is not the most reliable of guides and I have reverted to the Army List as a more stable source of dates.

I would agree that it is highly unusual for a man to remain as a 2 Lt throughout the war. I am trawling the diaries and if I see any other mentions I will report back.

[corisande]

Martin

Thank you for all those insights.

Can I ask a silly question, in the photo of Langrishe, which includes Kipling. Is there any reason why Langrishe is wearing different headgear. Is that to to with being a regular, for example

[Guest]

The 2nd Bn Diary from Sep to Dec 1915 is extremely feints and difficult to read...however there is a nominal roll dated 25th Oct 1915 which lists all the officers and Langrishe is missing... suggesting he disappeared from the 2nd Bn between 3rd-24th Oct. The diary does not appear to have recorded his departure.

Ref hat, I can only imagine it was taken soon after Langrishe's commission and his hat had not been made. I note his service dress is of course correct for the Irish Guards; buttons in fours etc. as i am sure you know. MG

[corisande]

Thank you for the Battalion Diary excerpt, I can empathise with hard to read documents and appreciate your deciphering it.

I raised the matter of the hat, as I have no idea if it is significant or not.

The 2nd Battalion of the Irish Guards was raised at Warley in Aug 1915 (and Warley is written on the photo). Langrishe had his probationary commission from Jan 1915

[Guest]

Thank you for the Battalion Diary excerpt, I can empathise with hard to read documents and appreciate your deciphering it.

I raised the matter of the hat, as I have no idea if it is significant or not.

The 2nd Battalion of the Irish Guards was raised at Warley in Aug 1915 (and Warley is written on the photo). Langrishe had his probationary commission from Jan 1915

But the 2nd Bn existed as the 2nd (Reserve) Bn prior to Aug 1915 .... In the May 1915 Army List shows 1st Bn and 2nd (Reserve) Bn the Officers all have (1) or (2) next to their names designating their intended destinations. Langrishe is listed under the 1st Bn

[IPT]

According to Kipling, he transferred from 2nd to 1st on 10th September 1915 - http://telelib.com/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/IrishGuardsv1/1915labasseelaventie.html

[Guest]

According to Kipling, he transferred from 2nd to 1st on 10th September 1915 - http://telelib.com/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/IrishGuardsv1/1915labasseelaventie.html

10th Sep he is moved from 2nd Bn to 1st Bn and then to the Reserve with the transport

3rd Oct he is moved from 1st Bn back to 2nd Bn

Thereby avoiding the carnage of Loos 1915....

[Colin W Taylor]

Gents,

As Moriarty quoted above his RAF record has him appointed 9 May 1918 and after a day was apparently promoted Lt. However he relinquished his commission in the RAF on 28 Nov 19 and presumably reverted to his last commissioned rank in the Irish Guards as 2Lt.

I can see no mention of any court martial ledgers relating to him and if he had lost seniority through the decision of a CM he would have presumably had this gazetted; as Corisande has stated there is no evidence of this. Were it to be available his officer file might include a complaint about his performance or bearing which might have counted against his promotion which might not have warranted formal disciplinary action.

Francis Law, then a subaltern in the IG relates a story (in 'A Man at Arms') about an unpopular brother officer who acquired an unpleasant nickname for being of a '... melancholy and solemn disposition, [who] had a disconcerting way with revolvers, and frequently let fly with his own...'; who Law bullied. Whilst the chances of such a subaltern being Langrishe are slim, and it could be slanderous to suggest it was, such a demeanour might not be conducive for an officer to be top of the team sheet and therefore was potentially less likely to promote. However, this must be taken with a pinch of salt; Law was also left out of battle with Langrishe according to Kipling.

Though of no assistance with the recent Kipling debates Law's account does tell an interesting story of Johnny Kipling getting in hot water for almost running down a company of the Scots Guards in his little yellow Singer motor car. Having visited Batemans last year I was aware that the Kipling family didn't have a great deal of luck with automobiles.

Kind regards

Colin

Edit - According to Law; he and Christy both commissioned from Sandhurst in Jan 1915; he described Christy as a close friend; no mention of Langrishe who may not have fitted in with Law's clique.

[corisande]

he (Law) described Christy as a close friend; no mention of Langrishe who may not have fitted in with Law's clique.

Yes difficult to know what to read into photos, apart from the first photo I posted with the 6 2ndLts in 1915 at Warley, this is the only other group I found, which does not include Langrishe, but does not really prove anything !

I am not sure how seniority was dealt with in the LG. I have certainly come across entries that say a particular officer's seniority now dates from whatever, to announce a loss of seniority.

Certainly I have found the 18 month rule for promotion from 2nd Lt to Lt, a very useful guideline when hunting in LG for difficult to find promotions

Langrishe seems not to have done anything bad enough to have warranted a Court Martial, but at the same time bad enough to have retarded promotion to Lt for 5 years

[Guest]

Law and Christy were the only two Irish Guardsmen commissioned from Sandhurst in that intake (Commissioned 13 Jan 915), so they would have had plenty of time to bond. Langrishe was a Special Reserve Officer (also commissioned (probationary) in Jan 1915) who would not to my knowledge have gone to Sandhurst. The May 1915 Army List has Christy and Law already as Lieutenants - presumably accelerated given their RMC credentials and the fact that the Irish Guards losses of 1914 required replacements.

The early war diaries very often distinguished between Officers commissioned at Sandhurst and Officers from the Special Reserve. I may be misinformed but my understanding is that in 1914 and early 1915 the Special Reserve Officers were trained separately from those attending the RMC during this period. The official tendency to identify the RMC and SR Officers as separate groups may have reinforce some tacit prejudices. That said, in the photo of the six Officers they are all smiling and seem a tight bunch, with the notable exception of the unsmiling Langrishe with his anomalous headgear.

"Aristocrats Go to War" by Jerry Murland has two rather harrowing accounts of Guards Officers being bullied by their peers in the pre-war years. It was pretty brutal stuff and both ended in a public hearing attended by the press. The cases were 1906 (2 Lt Clarke-Kennedy, 1st Bn Scots Guards) and 1907 (Lt Woods, 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards). Both were effectively ostracized, bullied and eventually forced to resign their commissions. In the case of the Scots Guards the CO lost his job and the protagonists lost seniority. At the time there was a small scandal in the papers but Murland observes that the regiments closed ranks.

MG

[corisande]

I did not realise that the Guards treated officers differently in War Diaries

Langrishe did not go to Sandhurst. If you have not come across it, you can use the index one this Sandhurst site - click - which tells you is a man attended the RMC. You can go on and pay for further information. But the index is free. I find it usful when trying to establish if an officer went to Sandhurst or not.

[Guest]

I did not realise that the Guards treated officers differently in War Diaries

This might provide some useful context: The Greandier Guards diaries contain around a dozen references to Special Reserve Officers in 1914. Closer to home below is an example from the Irish Guards and perhaps the reason why they made note:

1st Bn Irish Guards War Diary - 30th Nov 1914. The Brigadier went round one or two of the billets and the transport lines . More service dress jackets and trousers were received, also a few bayonets. 2:00 pm. A draft of 288 NCOs and men arrived under the Command of Capt P L REID with the following Officers:

Lt G GOUGH

2 Lt H KEATING

2 Lt P MARION-CRAWFORD

2 Lt H AV HARMSWORTH

2 Lt A C W INNES

2 Lt L C LEE.

12 machine gunners were kept at the Base by order of authorities there.The weather for the last few days has been cloudy and wet and the streets are in a bad state so it is rather difficult to keep the billets clean. The men are greatly improved in their health already by this rest and good feeding. With the draft the battalion is just 700 strong with 15 Officers, 9 of whom are in the Special Reserve, 7 of them having done no sort of soldiering before the war broke out.

MG

[Moriaty]

I came across on the web the The Kipling Journal for September 2015 with an article by Mike Kipling entitled "John Kipling's Pals" which gives potted biographies of the five Irish Guards Officers in the photograph with John Kipling in Corisande's reply no 6 in this topic.

http://genealogy.kipling.me.uk/KJ_Sept15.pdf

[corisande]

Thanks Moriaty

I had read that Kipling Journal article and found it very useful on some of the background like Langrishe's engagement to Barbara Cartland being broken off.

For anyone wanting information on any of the other men in that first Kipling photo above, it is a very good source of leads.

[Simon_Fielding]

Britain School & University rolls 1914-1918 Transcription

Print transcription

First name(s) T H

Last name Langrishe

School / university name Eton College

Narrative 1912 Langrishe, T.H., Lieutenant Irish Guards, attached R.A.F. France, Italy

Notes Left Eton College in 1912

Source List of Etonians who fought in the Great War 1914-1919

[Simon_Fielding]

Ancestry suggests there's a bio. in the 1974 / 126th ed of Who's Who

[corisande]

Simon

Thanks for those bits. I'll see if I can track down that Who's Who

[Simon_Fielding]

http://irishconstabulary.com/topic/1433/Dame-Barbara-Cartland-PETER-KILLED-MORNING-TELL-MILLICE#.VrO5d1WLTnA

Dame Barbara Cartland. "PETER KILLED THIS MORNING. TELL MILLICENT. LOVE PINGO."

Barbara Cartland was touched by the Irish trouble's in 1920, by the fact her great friend, Millicent Orr Ewing was engaged to Peter Ames, who was killed, on Bloody Sunday, November, 21st 1920, she was the person who received the telegram with the notification of his death, asking her to tell Millicent. The telegram had been sent by her fiance nicknamed Pingo* who had gone out to Ireland with Peter Ames in September, 1920, both ex-officess, were ex- members of the Brigade of Guards, one serving in the Grenadier Guards, the other the Irish Guards.

Both men had, finding no work in England, joined an organisation which was being sent to Ireland, or as Pingo informed her, " It had been decided there would be a small group of men sent from England as a special police force, it means i shall be away six months, i shall be earning £600 a year.' I will save every penny and then we can get married. Besides, this may lead to other things. I cannot get a job here and i cannot go on waiting. I want to marry you.

Miss Cartland, Tell's of her emotional response's after receiving the telegram, and after attending Peter Ames's funeral , which i feel is worth quoting : -

" There is a telegram for you, Babs, darling,' A telegram ?, i exclaimed. It must be from Pingo. Perhaps he is coming home on leave!' I ran down the stairs eagerly and snatched up the telegram. I was no longer frightened of the orange envelopes. The war was over and i had forgotten the tension in one's fingers, that sudden feeling of breathlessness as one pulled out the telegram form. It will be wonderful if he is back in time for.....' I chattered, and stopped suddenly. With a kind of sick horror i read the words that were written on the form and read them again. ' PETER KILLED THIS MORNING. TELL MILLICENT.' 'How can i tell Millicent? I asked my mother, but she knew it was something i had to do alone and she could not help me.

I took a bus from Sloane Square along Piccadilly. I remember walking down Berkeley Street and through Berkeley Square, my footsteps getting slower and slower as i approached Hill Street. I can still see the railings of the houses. They seemed like prison bars and i remember feeling that it could not be true.

A maid opened the door. I walked to Millicent's little sitting-room on the top landing. it was a room where she had planned her future with Peter ; a room where we had sat so often together, talking eagerly of our marriages, our happiness and of the men we loved. I connot remember what i said or how i told her, only the sudden agony in her eyes, the stricken look on her face as though a light had gone out.

Three weeks later my mother and i, both dressed in black, attended the Requiem Mass in Westminster Cathedral which was sung for Peter and the other Catholic victims. Soldiers with inverted arms guarded his unusually long coffin which lay in state under a Union Jack.

When we got home my mother kissed me. 'I am sorry you had to go through this darling,' she said. ' It was a very beautiful service. You must write to Pingo and tell him about it.

'I am going to write to him,' I answered, 'to tell him i will not marry him.' I knew then i was running away, but i could not bear to be involved in death and murder, tears and unhappiness.

It had already affected my childhood and i had a horror of anything connected with violence.

I wrote to Pingo. 'It is no use,' I said 'I do not love you enough.' That was untrue. It was not that i did love him, it was just that i was afraid of my emotions. I could not be torn in pieces as my mother, Millicent and almost everybody i knew had been. Two days later i received a telegram from Ireland. 'RETRACT YOUR DECISION IMMEDIATELY OR I SHALL GO OUT AND GET SHORT.' It was signed Pingo. I did not believe he would deliberately lose his life on my account. Pingo got compassionate leave and arrived in london but i would not see him. I cannot marry him. I hate Ireland. How can i live there?' I said to my mother. 'You must explain it to him. 'You must get me out of my engagement.' Pingo was only one of many young men my mother had to comfort or persuade, as kindly as she could.

End of Quote.

* Pingo, Real name, Terence Hume Langrishe. 1895--1973.

Pingo. did not go out and get shot, but it took him eight years to recover from his rebuff by Miss Cartland and get engaged again. The engagement led to marriage. In June 1926, he married Joan Grigg, the daughter of a major in the 18th Hussars. They lived long and happily together, and Joan bore him three sons, the first born in 1927.

Langrishe continued his career in the Army, serving in World War II as a captain in the Intelligence Corps. In 1943, he succeeded his father as 6th Baronet and inherited the family estate of, Knocktopher Abbey, Kilkenny, Ireland. ( Now a Timeshare Resort) After the war he became a member of Lloyd's., Sailing was another of his interests. He died aged aged 78, on the last day of 1973.

Ref :-- We Danced All Night. by Barbara Cartland. Pub, Hutchinson, 1970. ( She did not give his full name in this book as he was still alive.)

My First Love. by Barbara Cartland. ( Article) Daily Mail, Saturday, Noverber 4, 1995. ( Where she gives his full name.)

[corisande]

Thanks Simon

I was just following up on your post and started into "Pingo" - I am not sure why Langrishe was nicknamed Pingo, sounds very Public School and Bertie Wooster

Anyway I came across this book "Moving on - from the Memoirs of the late Sir Rupert Grayson" - click for part of the book online

Grayson describes the social life that he and Langrishe and John Kipling enjoyed just prior to going to France

It also says that Grayson was wounded by the same shell that killed Kipling - I have no idea how true that might be.

[Guest]

On page 686 of the RAMC diaries for the Guards Div, 2 Lt Langrishe appears in 4th Field Ambulance with inflamed tonsils and is evacuated on 4th Oct 1915 to the CCS.

WO 95/1207

[corisande]

Thanks Martin

So know we know why he was sent back from the line.

Grayson's Memoirs that I referenced in post 23 above. Paint him as quite a jolly, if eccentric character, who was popular in London society