Mark Hone Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 On our October school tour I shall be covering the German 'flammenwerfer' attack at Hooge on 30th July. Two old boys of Bury Grammar School were involved: Corporal Phillip Holmes of 7th King's Royal Rifle Corps died later in 1915 but left a short first-hand account of the battle. Rifleman Denis Lauria of 8th KRRC, the son of the vicar of Ainsworth, was killed in the British counter-attack and is commemorated on the Menin Gate. For my October stands I am particularly trying to work out the line of advance of 8th KRRC in the counter-attack. They are only mentioned in passing in the accounts I have read which focus on other units involved such as 9th KRRC and battalions of the Rifle Brigade. A few years ago a member of the forum was researching 8th KRRC but he is no longer an active member and the link to his website is broken. Ten years ago, when I last covered the action on my tour, there was a discussion about Phillip Holmes's account, including an 'atrocity' story, which Pals might find interesting: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41116&page=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Mark I should be able to help. I am currently in Lancashire (God's country I am reliably informed) but my database is in Sussex and I will not be reunited with it until Wednesday. If you can wait that long, I should be able to piece it together quite quickly. Do you have the formation the battalions (Div, Brigade) were in and the names of the other battalions in the Brigade(s). given the low Battalion number I assume K1 and the 14th Light Div? If this is correct, from memory the Brigade diary will yield some useful info. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Mark, This is part of the report of the 41st Brigade on the counter attack giving you a rough direction for the 7th KRRC and 8th KRRC. There is a personal account in "Memoirs of a Rifleman Scout" by Major F.M. Crum of the 8th KRRC. I have more personal accounts but these come from the Rifle Brigade rather than the KRRC. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 25 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Thanks folks. I wasn't clear if 8th KRRC attacked alongside 9th on the west side of the attack or with 7th on the east. This makes it clear. It seems that the two BGS boys fought very close to each other that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Hi Mark, Yes, they would have died reasonably close to one another depending on when the man in the 7th KRRC was killed. The 9th KRRC attacked through the 9th Rifle Brigade a little bit further down the Menin Road by the culvert, with 9th RB sending up re-inforcements when they took G.10. Just for your information, the flamethrowers used were Gros Flamenwerfer not the usual smaller back pack flamethrowers, which had a larger spray and range and fell on the 8th RB's position, reports state that all the undergrowth was set alight as well as sandbag covers in the British trenches. A demonstration was held for the attacking companies on the 29th as the attacking companies were in rest. According to the German Regiments account, the effective range of these Gros Flamenwerfer was 30 yards, their fire spurt spread forth flat over the trenches and would probably cause a panic, but that men that protected themselves were not placed immediately out of action. An immediate advance by storm troops after the fire burned out (approximately 2 minutes) was therefore a requirement of success. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 25 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Corporal Phillip Holmes, the chap in 7th KRRC survived; he was killed at the end of 1915. From his account it is clear that he was in a reserve trench when the German attack started and took part in the counter attack. Lauria's rather brief newspaper obituary states that he was killed on 30th July 1915 'as his company was charging'. He is commemorated on the Menin Gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Hi Mark, Then they would have been killed close to one another, the 7th KRRC reserve was in Sanctuary Wood and the 8th RB Reserve being in Zouave Wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Gilbert Talbot (Toc H) was killed that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 25 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Yes, we'll be visiting Talbot's grave at Sanctuary Wood Cemetery and seeing his original grave marker at Talbot House on the same day. I shall also point out the private memorial to Lt Keith Rae of the Rifle Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Just for your information, the flamethrowers used were Gros Flamenwerfer not the usual smaller back pack flamethrowers, which had a larger spray and range and fell on the 8th RB's position, reports state that all the undergrowth was set alight as well as sandbag covers in the British trenches. A demonstration was held for the attacking companies on the 29th as the attacking companies were in rest. According to the German Regiments account, the effective range of these Gros Flamenwerfer was 30 yards, their fire spurt spread forth flat over the trenches and would probably cause a panic, but that men that protected themselves were not placed immediately out of action. An immediate advance by storm troops after the fire burned out (approximately 2 minutes) was therefore a requirement of success. In fact (as per Major Reddemann's history of the flamethrower troops and subsequent specialist scholarship, including Thomas Wictor's exhaustive book on the subject) the attack at Hooge was a combined operation employing nine static Grof (grosse Flammenwerfer) and eleven portable two-man Kleif (kleine Flammenwerfer). It was conducted by 9. Kompagnie of what was then the III. Garde Pionier Bataillon, which became part of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment when the latter was formed in 1916. Contrary to British accounts there were zero fatal casualties to the flamethrower operators in this attack. See http://kaiserscross.com/40029/76401.html Effective range for the Grof M.1912 was reckoned to be 115-130 feet. The Kleif M.1912 and M.1914 had an effective range of 50-60 feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 25 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Thanks for the information about the Flammenwerfer which will help inform my technical description on site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Which goes against the German Regimental account "On 26th July the Division commander, General - Leutnant von Bertrab viewed the position and arranged for the Regiment to be in possession of 8 large and 12 small (of which 4 were held in reserve) flame-throwers for the pending attack, for whose effects we have been promised a great deal. Besides the crater the English position north of the high road and the stronghold south of the village Hooge were to be taken. IR 172 on he left of us would also attack and take possession of the wood south of our left flank. The success of this attack would essentially improve our front especially as headquarters had also raised the prospect of giving up the Fingerstellung". Another part of the Regimental account "because the oil reservoir of the flame thrower were very sensitive to any damage" Six were in effect used in the initial attack. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Placement of the six initially used according to an 8th RB officer that survived. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Interesting also from the Regimental account:- "The sector garrison would support the attack with fire. Partition on 30 July 1915. Storm battalion under Hauptman Erhardt First line 2/3 6th Coy, 3rd Coy, 2nd Coy Reserve 1/3/ MG Coy, 1st Coy, 4th Coy. Sector Garrison under Major Blezinger Front line 1/3 MG Coy, 7th Coy, 1/3 6th Coy, 8th Coy, 5th Coy Support 2nd position 1/3 MG Coy, 10th Coy, 9th Coy Regimental Reserve (3rd position) 12th Coy, 11th Coy The English Garrison, as far as those that did not flee, were taken prisoner or killed; 2 machine guns in the attack area of 6th Coy afforded stubborn resistance. During this time 4th Coy moved into the crater, attacked the western most houses of Hooge with a platoon that was still occupied by Englishmen, out of which strong machine gun fire flanked the 2nd Coy and hindered further advancement. On the left wing meanwhile the 6th Coy were detained anew by a 3rd English machine gun that was very skillfully operated by an officer and caused heavy losses. They had already put in their 3rd platoon and received reinforcements from the 1st Coy. Therefore the 3rd MG was taken." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Which goes against the German Regimental account "On 26th July the Division commander, General - Leutnant von Bertrab viewed the position and arranged for the Regiment to be in possession of 8 large and 12 small (of which 4 were held in reserve) flame-throwers for the pending attack, for whose effects we have been promised a great deal. This would correspond to the theoretical armament of two combat platoons at this stage of the war (each company of III. Garde-Pionier-Bataillon possessed three such platoons). Each platoon was supposed to have four to six Grof and six Kleif. The figures quoted by Reddemann presumably correspond to the actual armament of the two platoons committed, as per the (lost) battalion war diary. How much of the kit was actually used in the attack, how and exactly where is another question. British accounts certainly describe the use of man-portable Kleif but also describe fatalities to the operators, which verifiably did not occur on this occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 25 May , 2015 Share Posted 25 May , 2015 Andi, Can't disagree with you on that having the German casualty figures, but as they were worked out on a different schedule to the British I can only go by the Coy's deceased which were then rested and out of the line before, certainly they seem quite a lot also Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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