Essex & East Surrey Regiment experts - help us crack this puzzle&#

[MBrockway]

Pals,
We currently have a perplexing conundrum running on the Uniforms & Cap Badges sub-forum here: Cap badge identification please

It concerns Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, 11th Bn., Essex Regiment, KiA 22 Apr 1917 and Pte. Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571, 1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment, Old Contemptible and repatriated POW.

It's a long and convoluted story, but fascinating, so please bear with us! I'll try to be brief


The Background and the Evidence

The family have letters from the first of these Alf Elsons as well as his Memorial Plaque and photographs of a uniformed man at home with other family members with an Essex cap badge. These are labelled 'Uncle Alf', though probably at a much later date.

Bizarrely though, there are also Red Cross POW records for the second Alf "1st East Surreys" Elson listing his capture severely wounded in the Arleux/Oppy area. The records begin on 08 May 1917 only 16 days after the first Alf Elson was KiA with 11/Essex on 22 Apr 1917. The Red Cross records also name a family member as his Next of Kin.

The Red Cross data also shows this second Alf was repatriated and admitted to the King George Hospital, London on 23 Feb 1918 before eventually being discharged due to Wounds with a Silver War Badge on 29 Jun 1918.

To perplex even further the family has a clipping from the front page of the Daily Mail of 27 Feb 1918 with an excellent picture of a man in hospital blues with an East Surreys cap badge captioned 'The "Blighty" Smile - Private Ellson just back from Holland'. He's wearing a huge impish grin and is proudly sporting a small placard on which is written 'God bless you all. Neutral Holland's thoughts and heartiest wishes follow you back to your mother country'.

The family also has studio photographs that we have been able to date to 10-24 Mar 1918 of a soldier with an East Surrey cap badge, two Good Conduct chevrons, two Wound stripes and a MG trade badge together with William George Elson, M/301063, ASC (MT), who was Alfred Victor Elson's brother. Two Good Conduct chevrons in Mar 1918 are consistent with a pre-War regular who enlisted in 1912 as did the East Surreys Alf Elson.

The man in this set of photos, the man in the Daily Mail picture and the man in the earlier pictures with the Essex cap badge, all have a resemblance to each other, but the Pals feel they are probably different men. Jon has set up a good identity parade, so you can make your own minds up about that!

The final twist in the tale is an exchange of letters between William Elson's wife (i.e. Alf's sister-in-law) and the War Office in Dec 1918/Jan 1919, which confirm that no grave has been located for Pte A. Elson, KiA 22 Apr 1917, and indeed he is only commemorated on a panel for the Missing.

There are no surviving medals or SWB, and no Memorial Scroll, only the death penny, which is, predictably, only inscribed with 'Alfred Victor Elson'.

Neither of the Alfs has a Service nor Pension Record surviving, but we have the key dates for the East Surreys Alf from his SWB roll entry, as well as Embarkation dates for both Alfs from their MICs. Hyperlinks to all the key documents are in the main Topic in Post #55.

The family has nothing relating to the East Surreys Alf prior to July 1917, and, aside from the Memorial Plaque, nothing from the Essex Alf later than May 1917.

Our genealogical research has 100% failed to find two men born who would then be of military age called 'Alfred Victor Elson', there's only the one man who is definitely the Uncle Alf known to the family.


The Hypotheses

We are considering the possibility of the KiA Alf in the Essex Regt being another family member who enlisted under age using Alf's name. Also that there might be a family member conceived out of wedlock who chose to enlist under his half-brother's name, but so far all the family history evidence is against these two angles.

Instead we are working on the theory that these two Alfs are in fact the same man and the casualty listing and death penny are an administrative error. Something like this ...

He began the war as a professional regular L/10571 with the 1st East Surreys, embarked on 16 Aug 1914 and at some point before Aug 1915 was transferred to the Essex Regt back in Blighty and re-numbered 3/2814. He then landed again in France with 11/Essex on 30 Aug 1915. The family has undated letters from him addressed under 'Pte A. Elson 3/2814, 11^th Batt Essex Regt, H.Q. Machine Gun Section, B.E.F'

During an Action around 22 Apr 1917 he was severely wounded but trapped in territory which became controlled by the enemy. His battalion posted him Missing and perhaps his comrades reported him as being very severely wounded.

He then enters the German medical system going through a Reserve-Lazarett in Tournai and POW camps at Limburg, then Hameln. The German Kriegs-Ministerium record him as being captured on 08 May 1917 in the Arleux/Oppy area. However the Germans record him as 10571 (sic without the L prefix), Elson, Pte Alfred, C Coy, 1st East Surrey Regt, not 3/2814, 11/Essex, and this identity is what is used on the Red Cross returns, which get back to the British War Office. The earliest German return on file with the ICRC was received in Switzerland on 11 Aug 1917. The family back in Blighty may hear from him direct and assume the War Office is aware he is now in enemy hands, but alive.

He is eventually repatriated and admitted to the King George Hospital in London on 23 Feb 1918, appears on the cover of the Daily Mail on 27 Feb, also in the family studio photos in Mar and is then discharged with SWB on 29 Jun 1918, all as L/10571, Pte Alfred Victor Elson, 1st East Surrey Regt.

Meanwhile the War Office still have a report of Pte Alfred Victor Elson, 3/2814, 11/Essex Regt as Missing from the Action around 22 Apr 1917. As they receive no news from the neutral powers nor Red Cross concerning 3/2814, they eventually deem Alfred as Accepted As Dead. Possibly his Essex Regt comrades had been pretty sure he could not have survived his injuries. The MIC for the Essex Alf is labelled 'Dead' not 'KiA', which perhaps supports this.

'2814 (sic, without the '3/' prefix), Pte A. Elson, Essex Regt, Wandsworth, SW' is listed as 'Killed' in The Times on 31 May 1916. SDGW has him as KiA 22 Apr 1917.

Some time in late 1918, the family is contacted by the War Office and Ministry of Pensions to complete the various Next of Kin Details paperwork for a Fallen Soldier entitled to medals, memorial plaque and scroll. This may have been their first indication that Alf in his Essex Regt identity was still regarded as a casualty and that the War Office were unaware he had in fact survived.

The family decide getting the death penny would be a good wheeze and no harm done since Alf had 'died' an unmarried man and there would be no financial deception. Alf's sister-in-law writes to the War Office about the whereabouts of Alf's grave and gets confirmation that no grave has been located. This re-assures the family that a genuine casualty has not been mis-identified as the Alf they well know to be alive. If a grave had been identified, then the right thing would have been to come clean so another family might have their loved one correctly located.


The Help We Now Need ...

To test this hypothesis further, we need help from other Pals who can help us with ...

#1.
11th Bn., Essex Regiment War Diary Look-up for the period around 22 Apr 1917 when Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, 3/2814, of the HQ Machine Gun Section may have been reported Missing and/or Killed. If the battalion's location is in the Arleux/Oppy area, that would also be useful corroboration.

#2.
11th Bn., Essex Regiment War Diary Look-up for the period around 30 Aug 1915 when the battalion embarked in France looking particularly for any Nominal Roll that shows Alf.

#3.
Any Essex Regiment specialist who can advise if veteran regulars from the 1st East Surreys were transferred into the 11/Essex Kitchener Service battalion in Blighty during 1915.

#4.
A look-up in the Essex Regt Victory & British War Medal rolls to see what battalion information is there for 3/2814 Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, and if any earlier service in the East Surreys is mentioned. The roll reference is K/2/102B, p.25

#5.
A look-up in the Essex Regt 1914-15 Star rolls to see what information is there for 3/2814 Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, and if any earlier service in the East Surreys is mentioned. The roll reference is K/2/16B, p.2B (I think)

#6.
1st Bn., East Surrey Regiment War Diary Look-up for the period around 22 Apr to 08 May 1917 when Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, L/10571 was captured according to the German Kriegs-Ministerium records sent to the Red Cross. If the battalion's location is a long way from the Arleux/Oppy area, that would also be useful corroboration.

#7.
Any East Surrey Regiment specialist who can advise on whether L/10571 Pte A.V. Elson is listed as receiving a Blighty wound in 1914 or the first half of 1915, or whether men were transferred from 1/E Surrey into the Essex Regt in that same period.

#8.
A look-up in the East Surrey Regt Victory & British War Medal rolls to see what battalion information is there for L/10571 Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, and if any service in the Essex Regt is mentioned. The roll reference is E/1/103B, p.1256 (I think - MIC not 100% clear)

#9.
A look-up in the East Surrey Regt 1914 Star rolls to see what information is there for L/10571 Pte Alfred Victor ELSON, and if any earlier service in the Essex Regt is mentioned. The roll reference is E/1/6, p.41

Not asking much are we?

If anyone can help with any of the above, please dive in, preferably adding the results not here, but in the original Topic here: Cap badge identification please

All suggestions on additional ways to crack this puzzle &/or alternative solutions most welcome!

Cheers!
Mark

[Loader]

To quote Mr. Abbott & Mr. Costello- "Who's on first?"!!

WOW! This is a puzzler indeed. Makes me tired just reading it. Your reseach so far is to be admired & nobody can say you haven't out the maximum effort into it so far. Sorry I can't help at all but GOOD LUCK in solving this one. Please keep posting any updates.

[bootneck]

Mark

I would say you are looking at two different men.

The records relating to the 1^st Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment, during WW1 are quite extensive and include two other ranks casualty rolls c.1916-1919 as well as Battalion Part II Orders 1915-1918. There is an ongoing project to produce a nominal roll for the battalion during the conflict. They also hold the Surrey Recruitment Registers that are also available on Find My Past.

According to the Surrey Recruitment Registers Albert Victor Elson enlisted on 8 August 1912 into the 3^rd (Special Reserve) Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment and then apparently transferred to the regulars on 8 November 1912. I would assume it was the same man as most of the details agree but there are slight differences between the two entries.

When he enlisted into the Special Reserve his date of birth was given as 1895 and a year earlier when he joined the regulars. Both entries state born in Battersea and his trade was originally given as Blind Fitter’s Mate and subsequently as Blind Fixer. His height, weight and chest measurements had all decreased slightly; however his eyes are given as blue and his hair is described as fair on initial enlistment and when joining the regulars grey and light brown respectively. This may well be just the personal perspective of the medical examiner. The remarks column both mention 101 Herbert Road, Battersea and the first entry gives an A Dubery and the second as Mr A Dupan.

L/10571 Private Albert Victor Elson, disembarked in France with the 1^st Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment. He was admitted to hospital on 29 May 1915 with a gunshot wound to his right leg and discharged from hospital on 1 June. He went to Machine Gun School in late 1916/early 1917 and also Grenade School. Albert was reported missing on 8 May 1917 during the action at Fresnoy.

The First World War battalion war diaries for both the Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment and the East Surrey Regiment are available to view on-line on the Queens Royal Surrey Regiment’s website www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk at the following link http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/war_diaries_home_new.shtml.

regards

Bootneck

[MBrockway]

Thanks Bootneck - that fills in a lot of the gaps. I'll copy your whole post into the main Topic.

I'd already spotted the war diaries on-line and that led me to the 08 May 1917 Action at Fresnoy, which is covered in great detail in the War Diary. See this post in the main Topic: 1st East Surreys - Loss of Fresnoy - 08 May 1917

The man mentioned at 101 Herbert Road on the Recruitment Register is actually Alf's Employer, Arthur Henry DUPREE of 101 Harbut Road (source: 1911 Battersea Electoral Roll)

It certainly looks like the L/10571 Alf has a pretty continuous service history in the East Surreys with only a slight chance of an interlude in the Essex Regiment, so we're back exploring the scenario that the casualty in the 11/Essex Regt is another family member using Alf's name.

[MBrockway]

L/10571 Private Albert Victor Elson, disembarked in France with the 1^st Battalion, the East Surrey Regiment. He was admitted to hospital on 29 May 1915 with a gunshot wound to his right leg and discharged from hospital on 1 June. He went to Machine Gun School in late 1916/early 1917 and also Grenade School. Albert was reported missing on 8 May 1917 during the action at Fresnoy.Bootneck

Bootneck - do you have dates for Alf's time at the Machine Gun school? Do you know if it was the school at Grantham or somewhere In Theatre?

Lastly anything specific about him rejoining the battalion after hospital in Jun 1915?

Certainly very difficult for a man still in the East Surreys in Jun 1915 to land with the 11/Essex on 30 Aug 1915, be attending MG School as an East Surrey soldier in late 1916 and then be Killed In Action with the 11/Essex on 22 Apr 1917.

Cheers,

Mark

[bootneck]

Mark

He returned from MG School 1 January 1917 & went to Brigade Bombing School 3 March 1917.

Bootneck

[Blackblue]

Guys,

As outlined in the other thread I agree it is highly unlikely they are the same man.

And just to clarify....I think the East Surreys man is the imposter (and a younger relative possibly his brother Percy)....not the Essex man. I acknowledge this is in no way comprehensive, but my rationale is as follows:

• Percy was the right age to fudge an underage enlistment in 1912 into East Surreys (born 1898).
• There are two attestations with details differing.
• The description of each man differs considerably. Whilst these are not completely at odds....might they be two different men?
• The name and address of the employer has been gotten wrong....twice....are these transcription errors or a lack of knowledge of correct details?
• Percy was of age to serve, but no record of him serving in WW1.
• The East Surreys man gets his own Date of Birth wrong when a PW in 1917...twice...in very short order. Very odd.
• There is no record whatsoever of Alf after the East Surreys man comes home in 1918.
• Percy appears to have survived (dying in 1952) and it appears unlikely he is any of the other men who served OS under Percy Elson according to MICs.
• Photo of Essex man is named by the family as 'Uncle Alf'.
• Family possess Alf's Death Plaque indicating it was more likely Alf who died....not someone else.
• Next of Kin for the Essex Alf listed is his closest brother William's address (wife).
• Letter from Essex Alf to his brother William is signed off 'Your affectionate brother Alf'.
• The family would no longer have reason to hide a dead man's real identity.
• The family may well have had cause to hide the real identity of a survivor....who had used a false name.

Rgds

Tim D

[MBrockway]

Tim,

I agree and gave pretty much the same list to Mary in an exchange of e-mails off the Board last night!

One additional factor for your list ...

• POW 'Alf' from the 1st East Surreys appears in formal posed studio photographs with the brother William Elson, ASC from March 1918. Far more likely that Percy or Frank (the youngest brother) would do that, than a cousin.

Nevertheless, despite my money now being on Percy, I'm still chasing down evidence to corroborate or destroy all three of our scenarios, viz. they are the same man; the second Alf is Percy; the second Alf is a cousin.

Mark

[MBrockway]

Guys,

As outlined in the other thread I agree it is highly unlikely they are the same man.

And just to clarify....I think the East Surreys man is the imposter (and a younger relative possibly his brother Percy)....not the Essex man. I acknowledge this is in no way comprehensive, but my rationale is as follows:

• There are two attestations with details differing 4
• ....
• The name and address of the employer has been gotten wrong....twice....are these transcription errors or a lack of knowledge of correct details?³
• ...
• Next of Kin for the Essex Alf listed is his closest brother William's address (wife).¹
• ..
• The family would no longer have reason to hide a dead man's real identity.²
• The family may well have had cause to hide the real identity of a survivor....who had used a false name.²

Rgds

Tim D

Tim,

Few points arising from the above ...

Most important - ¹ in the Red Cross POW records, Essex Alf gives 'Miss Frost' at the address of his maternal uncle, Frederick Oscar Frost, NOT that of his brother William Elson and sister-in-law Florence (nee Bird). That's the main reason I'm still looking at the cousins on the Frost (Alf's mother's) side of the family.

When Will, Alf and Percy's father died in 1900, their widowed mother, Alice Kate Elson (nee Frost), appears to have been taken in by Frederick Frost while the children were all dispersed around the rest of the extended family, or (for Will and Alf) to the parish's District School. Good reason perhaps to presume 'Miss Frost' is actually his mother c/o her brother, Alf's uncle. Frederick also seems to have a more settled permanent address.

Next, ² Mary has now explained to me that the reason the true story has been lost to her generation is because William & Florence Elson (her grandparents) moved to Leigh-on-Sea and lost touch with the London family.

Lastly ³ the errors about Arthur Dupree etc in the Surrey Recruitment Registers on Find My Past are almost certainly due to transcription mistakes, and ⁴ the different attestation dates for East Surreys Alf are because he initially enlisted into the Special Reserve (a form of part-time soldiering more onerous than the TF) and only later converted to a standard Regular.

I ought to copy all this into the main Topic!

Mark

[MBrockway]

A huge thank you to Pal @ypres who's come up with the 11/Essex war diary.

There was indeed a major action by the battalion on 22 Apr 1917 at NASH ALLEY in the LOOS Sector and the battalion sustained heavy losses - 250 OR's as casualties.

Mark

[Blackblue]

Cheers Mark,

In your point 4 I mean that the details recorded during each of the attestations appear to differ (not the dates).

Understood it is SR then Regular.

TD