Liz in Eastbourne Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 (edited) This is a clip showing Lt J B Coates from the group photo of the Yeoman Rifles officers, Feb 1916. It's on p 6 of the topic 21/KRRC - the Original Yeomen where the left-hand section group enlargement may be a bit clearer - he's second from left, middle row. Is he wearing a Royal West Surrey cap badge and collar dogs - can anyone tell? Or are they, at least, not inconsistent with the RWS Regt? I think he is one and the same as the Royal West Surrey Regt officer who eventually became Col. J B Coates CBE MC, and who was GSO 9th Indian Division in 1940, and according to the Queens Royal Surreys website was ordered to leave Singapore just before it fell in 1942. London Gazette entries for 1916 show J B Coates of the RWS Regt attd to the KRRC, no battalion stated. There's also an entry in LG 9 Nov 1917 - RW Surrey Regt To be Capt J B Coates. [and to remain sec'd.] EDIT this last bit refers to the next man, not to Coates. There's a full stop after his name. But the MiC (James Bertram Coates) makes no mention of the KRRC, and nor does the account of Col Coates on the Queens Royal Surreys website, which says only that he served with the 2nd Bn RWS Regt in France and Italy. He could have done this with the attachment to 21/KRRC in between and the photograph there of him as a more mature man is fairly consistent with this one. Confirmation that this man in the 21/KRRC photograph is a Royal West Surrey Regt officer would add confidence to these deductions! I'd be grateful for any help. Liz Edited 5 January , 2011 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Not proof positive, but having just flicked through a selection of Army Lists for 1915 - 1918, and January 1922 there's only ever one Coates, J B in the index, and he was Queen's and was employed with 21KRRC and had the MC. I had a look at a couple for WWII as well, and another Coates JB was commisisoned in the early aprt of the war, A&SH, then to RAOC by the looks of it, but the other one seems to still be the same Queen's man, Lt-Col, T/Col and a GSO1 with the Indian Army. I could well believe that it's a Lamb and Flag on Cap and Collars in the photo above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 Thank you, David - taking the last point first (which I ought really to have put in the Paraphernalia section) I have now completely convinced myself too that it is the Lamb and Flag, having peered closely at the original photograph, which is clearer, and at the insignia (which I didn't know before) on various websites. It is a very distinctive outline. I am glad to hear that the Army lists include both that JB was with the Queen's AND that he had been in the 21/KRRC. It's just the final proof, I think, because when you put all the pieces together it is pretty clear that this is the same man. Is there one or more entry I can quote that says both? 1916? The MC was gained in 1919 in the Birthday Honours for services in Italy with the QRWS, though, not as I thought might be the case with the KRRC (the QRS website said it was 1917) - thanks to another forum member, Steve E, for help on finding that one! I'll put all the bits of evidence on the 21/KRRC thread. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 The January 1922 Gradation List is probably the easiest, I forget precisely which I sampled at random from the war years themselves, and this list gave dates for his service with 21/KRRC, if I remember I'll try to take a photo on another occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 That's very good of you, David. Where do you go to look at the Army Lists? Kew? Imperial War Museum? I should go up to London myself, really, but am hibernating! As I said I'll go ahead and post what I know so far on the 21/KRRC thread, while it's in my mind, and edit it later. I've also e-mailed the Surrey History Centre for info from his 1988 obituary in the QRS Regimental Assoc. Newsletter. But I suspect that too will say little or nothing about his KRRC attachment. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 5 January , 2011 Share Posted 5 January , 2011 I will have to check, but I am certain that my work colleague's grandfather served in Coates' platoon during the Christmas Truce of 1914. I have a niggling feeling that she may have a letter or some such from him. It will have to wait until to tomorrow as the lady in question has gone home for the evening. I will let you know. Kind regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 5 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2011 This would be a very interesting addition to his story, Tim. He certainly went to France with the Queen's Royal West Surreys in November 1914 as a 17-year-old 2nd Lieutenant. Extraordinary to think that he was only 18 when he was seconded to the Yeoman Rifles a year later as a fairly experienced Lieutenant, though I know there were many similar young men. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 Hi Liz, It was indeed the man, my colleague is going to look to see if she has anything related to him. I will be in touch again shortly. Kind regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 James Bertram Coates - Army List entries. Bit of camera shake, but hopefully just about legible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 6 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2011 James Bertram Coates - Army List entries. Bit of camera shake, but hopefully just about legible. That's terrific, David, thank you very much! Absolutely clear statement of his attachment from QRWS to 21/KRRC. What with that, the Gazette entries and the insignia, there's no doubt at all. I do appreciate the trouble you've taken to do this. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 6 January , 2011 Share Posted 6 January , 2011 I noticed reading something else today that 21/KRRC were brigaded with 10/Queen's (Battersea Bn), at the time of his attachment. I wonder if he was originally destined for them, but it was decided 21/KRRC were more in need of his experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Yes, I noticed that because their 1916 war diaries are together (10/Queens and 21/KRRC) and Eden in his book dealing with his time in the 21/KRRC talks about the Queen's battalion. But I have no idea how these things happened. There are several other non-KRRC officers in the 1916 photograph including of course both the Colonel and his second-in-command - I suppose that was inevitable, with a new battalion - but another thing I haven't fully understood is the different ways in which this could happen. For another thread, I guess. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 I see from his birth registration that he was a Manchester man (Chorlton Registration District), http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=kvA2uH4Kp%2Fh3FnoYiMPTfQ&scan=1 which makes any 10/QUEENS connection less likely, they tried very hard to keep all the officers other than CO and adjutant at least from SW London, if not Battersea itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Interesting that he went into the Queen's Regt at all, really. I have done all the Ancestry etc research and his family in Manchester (esp. his father, Dr later Sir William Coates) are very interesting - I must get that account of him up on the Yeoman Rifles thread this evening! I was just waiting for a reply from Sandhurst as he seems remarkably young to have gone there from Marlborough (as claimed on the QRWS website), he would have been 16. I can't find his commission in 1914 in the LG or in the Times. I think his northern origins might have made him a candidate for secondment to 21/KRRC. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Liz According to the nominal roll of Officers for the 2nd Battalion, The Queen’s held at the Surrey History Centre (their reference: 8227/1/3), Captain J B Coates MC disembarked in France on 23 November 1914 and joined the battalion on 26 November. He left the unit on 18 May 1915 after being wounded. He joined the 21st Battalion, KRRC, after arriving back in France on 5 May 1916. He left them on 23 September that year after being wounded. He returned to France on 8 July 1918 and he rejoined the 2nd Queen’s on 20 July and was still serving with them when the nominal roll was compiled. regards Bootneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 I can't find his commission in 1914 in the LG or in the Times. Liz This is what you're after, LG#28969, 10th November 1914, Page 9141. Link....http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28969/pages/9141. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 (edited) Thank you very much for these dates, Bootneck - very helpful to have them precisely. Interesting to see that he was wounded at Festubert in May 1915, I'd just been looking at the war diary so knew he was there but hadn't seen that he was wounded. I'm a bit puzzled by the gap between Sept 1916 and the statement that he rejoined the 2nd Queen's only on 20 July 1918 because he was with the regiment and being promoted in 1917. Of course he could have been somewhere else with the regiment at home. Just one amendment seems necessary: 21/KRRC went to France on 5 May 1916, that's not when Coates joined them. Coates was with them by Feb when the photo was taken in Aldershot and I have a feeling we have the secondment date - just need to check. Liz Edited 7 January , 2011 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Liz This is what you're after, LG#28969, 10th November 1914, Page 9141. Link....http://www.london-ga...8969/pages/9141. Regards Steve Steve - what would I do without you (at least where Coates is concerned)! Thanks! But why didn't that come up even when I was searching just on 'Coates' and searching through every blessed entry? In a desperate attempt to get a grip, appear halfway competent etc I have just searched the Times 10 - 20 Nov 1914 and though there are other Coateses in the Gazette lists there I still can't find him! Don't come back and tell me you can, I might not be able to bear it. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 I couldn't find it either, even searching on "gentlemen cadets" which sometimes helps with Sandhurst classes. Coates has probably joined together with the next forename (the gazette search doesn't seem to deal well with line breaks). Searching just on Bertram finds him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 7 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2011 I couldn't find it either, even searching on "gentlemen cadets" which sometimes helps with Sandhurst classes. Coates has probably joined together with the next forename (the gazette search doesn't seem to deal well with line breaks). Searching just on Bertram finds him. Thanks, David, this makes me feel much better! That was very young to go to Sandhurst , wasn't it? He must have left Marlborough at 16 and he was just 17 when he got his commission. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 One of the many vagaries of the Gazette search engine I'm afraid. David has hit the problem on the head, it's the search engine not being able to cope with a line break and adding Coates to the forename of the next entry. Do a search on Coates.Maurice and you'll find it. Truth be told I had to use the Gazette's index to find the entry. Off to search the Times now Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Underdown Posted 7 January , 2011 Share Posted 7 January , 2011 Yes, keep forgetting those indexes are available on the gazette website now. It's also worth bearing in mind that somehow the Google index seems to get round these limitations. "Bertram Coates" site:www.london-gazette.co.uk finds his commissioning entry fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bootneck Posted 8 January , 2011 Share Posted 8 January , 2011 Liz The nomonal rolls were used to show a man's entitlement to campaign medals. I had assumed 21st Battalion KRRC were already in France when Coates joined them. His personal record which is still with the MOD would fill in the gaps regarding the periods between his overseas postings. Perhaps the Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment Museum might have some idea? regards Bootneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 8 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2011 Thanks very much, Bootneck. I have now regretfully decided to leave my knowledge of JB Coates where it is for the time being and write it up, because my focus is the 21/KRRC officers, and I'm just trying to give a sketch of each one's career. I'll never move on otherwise! I am very grateful for all the help I've had here.. At least any subsequent researcher now has quite a lot to go on. I've been saying all week I'll put the info on JB Coates on the 21/KRRC thread and today I really will do it. If anyone still has anything to add of course that would be great. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 8 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2011 ................................... Off to search the Times now And?! Thanks to you and David for the handy London Gazette tips! But as for doing a search on 'Coates.Maurice', that's maddening as you can't know that until you've found it, if you see what I mean. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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