1st Bn, Royal Sussex Reg, India links?

[tiswot]

Hi

Does anyone know of a website or book or something about what the 1st Bn of the Royal Sussex Regiment got up to during WW1 in India? I have a link with a soldier buried in the Rawalpundi Cemetary, he died on 18.9.1918.

Thank you.

Liz

[sotonmate]

Liz

They were kept,under protest, on the North West Frontier zone for the duration of the War.

Their soldiers would have had the notation on their Medal Cards for the India General Service Medal and NWFF clasp,and might also have had the Afghanistan clasp for 1919 too.

Sotonmate

[tiswot]

Liz

They were kept,under protest, on the North West Frontier zone for the duration of the War.

Their soldiers would have had the notation on their Medal Cards for the India General Service Medal and NWFF clasp,and might also have had the Afghanistan clasp for 1919 too.

Sotonmate

Thanks Sotonmate.

The chap is John Tizzard, no. L/4147, his medal card is on Ancestry but I can't work out how to copy it here. He got the British, Victory and 15 Star on his medal card, but I can't read the 'Theatre of War first served in' bit. It looks like

5G II-IV Asintie ??

Any ideas what this means?

Liz

[kenf48]

5G "-" Asiatic

MIC alphanumeric codes to 31/12/1915

5 Asia G Frontier Regions of India

[From 1916 it was 6 Asia G ditto Basically 'Asia' was India and the Middle East e.g. 5C = Persia etc ]

Not sure why they put "-' in, unless it means all the medals were earned in that theatre. I've not seen it there before, although have seen similar abbreviations elsewhere on the cards.

Ken

[sotonmate]

Liz

I have the feeling that there is more to this ! I just looked at the MIC you mention. Your note that he has the three campaign medals suggests that he served elsewhere other than with the 1 R Sussex in India or he wouldn't have been entitled to them all,in fact only the British War Medal would have been awarded for that station,plus the India GSM and any clasps,except that as he died in 1918 he would have not been present in any of the three areas which later attracted those awards.Except that he has no India GSM award shown on the MIC. Maybe it is only shown if he earned clasps also.

I also failed to find J TIZZARD on CWGC,or on SDGW,but then widened the year search,and found that you meant 1919 ! Certainly shows as 1 Battalion,but was he with them all the time from landing on 17.8.1915 ?

Sotonmate

[tiswot]

Hi Sotonmate

The Medal card shows his date of death as 1918, so I think the CWGC have made a rare mistake. I am going to write to them to see if things can be clarified. I am halfway through my MA in FFWStudies at Uni of Birmingham and for my dissertation I'm researching the impact of the FWW on Brownsea Island and it's environs, he was living a Brownsea at the start of the war. Hence my interest.

I might post this on the individual soldiers record forum too.

But thanks for your help.

Liz

[headgardener]

I have the feeling that there is more to this ! I just looked at the MIC you mention. Your note that he has the three campaign medals suggests that he served elsewhere other than with the 1 R Sussex in India or he wouldn't have been entitled to them all,in fact only the British War Medal would have been awarded for that station,plus the India GSM and any clasps,except that as he died in 1918 he would have not been present in any of the three areas which later attracted those awards.Except that he has no India GSM award shown on the MIC. Maybe it is only shown if he earned clasps also.

Hi Sotonmate,

While you're absolutely right about British troops in India getting only a BWM, my understanding is that a 15 star (and therefore also a victory medal) was awarded to a very limited number of troops engaged in fighting on the NWF. I also understand that it's a very rare award as it's such a rare theatre to find on an MIC. My memory is that only a few hundred men qualified.

The award of an IGSM may be shown on an MIC but can also appear on a seperate type of index card filed with the MIC's. I've only ever come across a couple, and they've been for men who didn't qualify for any of the WW1 campaign medals. The award of an IGSM would definately be recorded even if it didn't warrant a clasp. It's possible that this man didn't get an IGSM because the sickness or wounds which may have killed him may also have kept him out of the firing line during the period of his battalion's qualifying service.

I'm pretty sure that this man's number is correct fo a pre-war regular in this battalion. As an aside, the 1/Sussex served in India for the duration (the only regular army battalion to do so, I believe), but many of the men were gradually transferred to 2nd battalion, or other regiments. I've certainly come across quite a few as casualties on the western front from 1915 onwards. I wonder how many of those pre-war regulars served their whole war in India? Not very many, I suspect.

[sotonmate]

HG

Thanks for the information,which I wasn't aware of,glad to be appraised of such things.It just reinforces the fact that there are exceptions to almost everything,requiring us to be vigilant in our advice and information giving !

Sotonmate

[headgardener]

HG

Thanks for the information,which I wasn't aware of,glad to be appraised of such things.It just reinforces the fact that there are exceptions to almost everything,requiring us to be vigilant in our advice and information giving !

Sotonmate

HERE'S a very good resumee of the regulations regarding the issue of the 14-15 star; you'll see that there are several 'Asiatic' theatres. The troops involved would be almost exclusively Indian regiments. The only westerners involved would be a few commanding officers and NCO's. Hence it being very unusual to come across an MIC listing any of these theatres. If we were Indian historians, however, we might be very aware of all these various campaigns.

[tiswot]

So my chap John Tizzard was a rare soldier? If I've understood the thread right he served all of the war in India, and took part in fighting on the NWfrontier, gaining a medal in doing so? Long way from Brownsea Island......

Liz

[headgardener]

If I've understood the thread right he served all of the war in India....

I'm not sure that that's exactly what we said. It certainly looks that way, but you won't know for sure without checking his entry on the medal rolls. The BW&VM roll could show that he strated out in India, was transferred to battalions other than 1/R Suss R, and then could have transferred back at a later date, but at a guess I'd say that he probably did serve the whole war in India. Maybe a Sussex Rgt expert could give an indication as to the percentage of 1st battalion men who served in India for the duration, but my guess (based on my own observations as detailed above) is that it may have been a relatively small number.

The medal he 'gained' (the 1914-15 star) was a very common campaign medal, but the campaign that he was involved in was in a very uncommon theatre of war for British troops to serve in. Check the MIC 'theatre' reference against the list on the link that I posted in my last response, it'll tell you which campaign (I think it was on the NWF, but can't guarantee it). Either way, most of these campaigns involved a large number of troops, but most of them were Indian, so the 'rarity' factor is that the number of British troops involved would have been small. I suggested in my last post that it would have been only several hundred men who would have qualified; in reality it would have been several thousand, but only several hundred of whom would have been British. I say several hundred, but I'm not absolutely certain of the figures. Either way, it's a very unusual 'theatre' to see on an MIC.

Did that make sense?

[tiswot]

Yes it makes sense. Next time I'm at TNA I'll find the relevent MIC and get the further info. Thanks for your help on this.

Liz

[MaureenE]

This is an old topic, but for references purposes, the following links (click on coloured text) mention the actions at Rustam and Shabdakr/Shabkadar in 1915

• "Punishing the Bunerwals" [1915] , page 217 Under ten viceroys the reminiscences of a Gurkha by Major-General Nigel Woodyatt 1922 Archive.org. Includes the actions at Rustam, and rather briefly Shabdakr in 1915.
• 'The Defence of India' by F. A. McKenzie, from The Great War edited by H.W. Wilson, volume 7, chapter 128. greatwardifferent.com, now an archived website. Scroll down to the section about the North West Frontier including Shabkadar. 
• To 9th March 1916  London Gazette Supplement 4 July 1916

 

Cheers

Maureen