charles williams

[Guest rhianbarker]

hello i was wonderig if anyone could help me find information on this ww1 soldier ?

this is the basic information i have:-

name- charles williams

lived in - Sawmill Cottage, Llanferres, Mold, Flintshire.

regiment- Royal Welsh Fusiliers

rank- private

died- 11-07-1916

age- 19

service number- 36982

additional information- Son of William and Sarah Ellen Williams

grave/memorial reference- Pier and Face 4 A.

memorial- thiepval memorial.

thankyou rhianbarker x

[larney]

Hi Rhian,

Name: WILLIAMS, CHARLES

Initials: C

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers

Unit Text: 16th Bn.

Age: 19

Date of Death: 11/07/1916

Service No: 36982

Additional information: Son of William and Sarah Ellen Williams, of Sawmill Cottage, Llanferres, Mold, Flintshire.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Pier and Face 4 A.

Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

Charles was killed at Mametz Wood with the 16th RWF, which was part of the 38th (Welsh) Division. You should be able to find out plenty of information on Mametz on t'internet!

SteveJ.

[Verrico2009]

Hi Rhian,

Armed with his parents' names and home address, you might like to see how large a family he came from. It's quite possible he was born at Sawmill Cottage so if you have access to the 1901 census search on, say, Ancestry you should be able to find them. Unfortunately the 1911 census has only just come online and isn't available on the geneaology websites yet.

Good luck!

Louise

[MBrockway]

In fact the 1901 Llanferres census entries are available on-line through a local history website covering Mold/Yr Wyddgrug.

With a bit more detective work based on the 1901 Census, you should be able to locate the approximate position of the cottage.

There's also a picture to be found of "a" Sawmill Cottage in the nearby area - whether it's "the" Sawmill Cottage in the Llanferres Census, where Charles lived, I'm not sure, but I think you should be able to find out with a bit of fieldwork around Llanferres, Loggerheads and Maeshafn.

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Mark

[clive_hughes]

Being a Flintshire casualty, you should also be able to find his County Memorial Card in the Record Office at Hawarden. These were filled in locally in 1919, are arranged by parish and may possibly contain some extra information.

His name is also on the Llanferres parish panel of the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch in Bangor, Gwynedd:

http://www.bangorcivicsociety.org.uk/pages/arch/DSCF4423.htm

There is also at least a chance that his full service papers have survived at the National Archives (please see guide to research at top of page) and if so, these should give you much more information on his Army career.

LST_164

[MBrockway]

Being a Flintshire casualty

..

LST_164

I have a horrible feeling Llanferres is in Denbighshire - isn't the county boundary stone that thing you pass going down the hill towards Loggerheads from Cadole?

Cheers,

Mark

[sotonmate]

rhian

His service record of 11 pages is on Ancestry UK - you ARE lucky (seven out of ten were destroyed by bombing in 1940)

Sotonmate

[clive_hughes]

Mark,

you may be right, although the 1996 boundary changes have rather confused the picture of what was/is Flintshire, Denbighshire, and Wrexham County Borough!

Llanferres was in old Denbighshire according to my trusty mid-1960s Readers Digest Atlas, so please ignore my witterings about the Flintshire CRO & cards - not applicable in this case.

Panel for Llanferres is definitely on the Archway, however!

LST_164

[MBrockway]

Llanferres was in old Denbighshire according to my trusty mid-1960s Readers Digest Atlas, so please ignore my witterings about the Flintshire CRO & cards - not applicable in this case.

LST_164

Not applicable in this particular case, but the majority of the other men the Ysgol Maes Garmon research team are investigating are indisputably Flintshire men, so a trip up to Hawarden to inspect those cards would definitely be worth their while.

A good lead for the team to follow.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Charles was killed [on 11th July] at Mametz Wood with the 16th RWF, which was part of the 38th (Welsh) Division.

SteveJ.

Rhian,

Robert Graves, the poet, was with the 2nd RWF at this time and he arrived at the edge of Mametz Wood on 16 July 1916, just five days after the 16th RWF had been fighting in the wood proper. The dead were still lying everywhere in the wood as it was still too dangerous to bring them in.

This is how he describes the scene in his autobiography Goodbye To All That:

... and here's the poem he wrote about the experience ...

A Dead Boche

TO you who'd read my songs of War

And only hear of blood and fame,

I'll say (you've heard it said before)

"War's Hell!" and if you doubt the same,

Today I found in Mametz Wood

A certain cure for lust of blood:

Where, propped against a shattered trunk,

In a great mess of things unclean,

Sat a dead Boche; he scowled and stunk

With clothes and face a sodden green,

Big-bellied, spectacled, crop-haired,

Dribbling black blood from nose and beard

Charles's body may have lying close by as Graves wandered through the wood trying to find dead men's coats to keep his men warm.

Such a short sad journey from Charles' childhood play in sunny Maeshafn Wood to an awful desperate teenage death in Mametz Wood.

Mark

[geraint]

Rhian

Llanferres is in modern day Denbighshire. The Archives at Ruthin will have nothing on him.

His death at Mametz would have been quite horrible. (I suppose that every war time death is such), but at Mametz - it was a slaughter.

The 16th Battalion RWF, followed immediately by the 14th RWF, and to their right hand side the 14th Welsh Regiment, and then further right again -the 13th Welsh Regiment.

A battalion had about a 1000 soldiers on a thousand yard stretch of trench. At Mametz there were originally 2,000 soldiers (16 + 14 RWF) on a 1000 yard stretch, and 14Welsh on a 1000 yard stretch and 13Welsh on another 1000 stretch. Ie 4000 soldiers over 3,000 yards.

The Royal Welsh Fusiliers were from North Wales, and the Welsh Regiment from South Wales. There were other battalions of RWF and WR and South Wales Borderes in reserve, to follow up the original attack.

The problem was that instead of attacking a length of enemy trench, the troops were attacking a large, thick forest, complete with trenches and machine gun nests. To make it worse, the 16th and 14th RWF were attacking across an open field, and the Germans had a vertical trench going down the left hand side of the field with machineguns and rifles. So the 16th were shot down by the enemy in front, AS WELL AS by the enemy to their left. What's known as enfilading fire.

10 July the Commanding Officer of the 16th RWF, Lt Col Carden told his men minutes before attacking, "Men; we are going to take that Wood! Some of us will not be coming back; but by God we're going to take that wood!" He then fixed a yellow hankerchief to his stick, holding it high "This will show you where I am!" He shouted. They attacked, singing Welsh hymns, and Carden was shot. He fell, staggered up, shouting "On, Welshmen, on" and was shot and killed at the edge of the wood. Your man survived, though hundreds of his fellow soldiers died.

He continued into the wood, involved in continuous grenade, and bayonet fights until night came, and they slept exhausted in the wood. Early light 11 July, he would have continued pressing on from tree to tree, and he was killed, in the wood on that day. Two days later, and the wood was finally taken. Such was the fierceness of the fighting that many corpses were smashed to bits, and unrecognisable. That, unfortunately is what became of your man as his name is on the Thiepval Memorial to men missing.

I lost a great uncle there as well, in the same battalion, and another two uncles survived.

Ruthin, which is only 12 miles from Mold lost 32 men killed at Mametz.

Go to Western Front sub forum on this GW Forum, and there's a thread on Mametz. I'll bump it up to the top page so that you can read it.

Was he related to you?

Hwyl fawr

Geraint

[Guest cfbsic]

steve of old sweats I saw a posting you made in Oct 09 looking for Harry Meakin. May i ask why? he was my grandfather. thanx

[larney]

steve of old sweats I saw a posting you made in Oct 09 looking for Harry Meakin. May i ask why? he was my grandfather. thanx

He is one of the men of Pembroke Dock who I am researching, to commemorate on my website (see my signature).

It would be easier for you to contact me through there, as until you have (I think) 10 posts, we cannot contact each ther.

All the best,

Steve.

www.pembrokeshire-war-memorial.co.uk

[MBrockway]

In fact the 1901 Llanferres census entries are available on-line through a local history website covering Mold/Yr Wyddgrug.

With a bit more detective work based on the 1901 Census, you should be able to locate the approximate position of the cottage.

There's also a picture to be found of "a" Sawmill Cottage in the nearby area - whether it's "the" Sawmill Cottage in the Llanferres Census, where Charles lived, I'm not sure, but I think you should be able to find out with a bit of fieldwork around Llanferres, Loggerheads and Maeshafn.

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Mark

Rhian,

I was over at Colomendy last Sunday so tried to check out the two locations which I think might be Charles's Sawmill Cottage.

Sorry to report though that I got stuck in the snow coming up the hill from Llanferres to Maeshafn and it took me half an hour to get unstuck!

Here's where I was ...

After that I decided discretion was the better part of valour and abandoned my attempt to get down the wee back road leading to one of the possible sites!

Shame as it was only 500m from where I got stuck

How are you getting on with your researches?

I think the Loggerheads Garage owner will be very interested to hear what you've found out about Charles

Cheers,

Mark

[grantowi]

Here's the family in 1911, living at the same address as in post #2, but then it was in Denbighshire.

WILLIAMS, William Head Married Gardener Domestic born 1858 in Denbighshire Wrexham

WILLIAMS, Sarah Ellen Wife Married 24 years born 1859 in Denbighshire Llangollan

WILLIAMS, James Son Single Game Keeper born 1890 in Denbighshire Llanferres

WILLIAMS, Walter Son Single Elementry School Teacher born 1891 in Denbighshire Llanferres

WILLIAMS, John Son Single Gardener Domestic born 1893 in Denbighshire Llanferres

WILLIAMS, Emma Daughter Single Apprentice Dressmaking born 1895 in Denbighshire Llanferres

WILLIAMS, Charles Son School born 1897 in Denbighshire Llanferres

WILLIAMS, Gwladys Ellen Daughter School born 1903 in Denbighshire Llanferres

Hth

Grant

[washingline]

QUOTE (SteveJ @ Feb 12 2010, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Charles was killed [on 11th July] at Mametz Wood with the 16th RWF, which was part of the 38th (Welsh) Division.

SteveJ.

Rhian,

Robert Graves, the poet, was with the 2nd RWF at this time and he arrived at the edge of Mametz Wood on 16 July 1916, just five days after the 16th RWF had been fighting in the wood proper. The dead were still lying everywhere in the wood as it was still too dangerous to bring them in.

This is how he describes the scene in his autobiography Goodbye To All That:

Graves__...916___02.jpg

... and here's the poem he wrote about the experience ...

A Dead Boche

TO you who'd read my songs of War

And only hear of blood and fame,

I'll say (you've heard it said before)

"War's Hell!" and if you doubt the same,

Today I found in Mametz Wood

A certain cure for lust of blood:

Where, propped against a shattered trunk,

In a great mess of things unclean,

Sat a dead Boche; he scowled and stunk

With clothes and face a sodden green,

Big-bellied, spectacled, crop-haired,

Dribbling black blood from nose and beard

Charles's body may have lying close by as Graves wandered through the wood trying to find dead men's coats to keep his men warm.

Such a short sad journey from Charles' childhood play in sunny Maeshafn Wood to an awful desperate teenage death in Mametz Wood.

Mark

I wanted to send you a message on this but you are not receiving messages apparently. Any advice?

[MBrockway]

I wanted to send you a message on this but you are not receiving messages apparently. Any advice?

Inbox cleared, but be quick - it fills up again very quickly!

[MBrockway]

Lots more information on Charles Williams here: http://llanferres.org/private%20charles%20williams.htm

Note however that his enlistment date there is erroneously listed as November 1916. It should of course be Nov 1915.

Also the author there states ...

"The service battalion would have been primarily engaged in excavation and entrenching work, often under very difficult and dangerous conditions"

so appears to have confused service battalions with the Army Service Corps and Labour Corps, though I suspect many of the PBI would not disagree about spending far too much time on trench repair detail!

Lastly the author locates Sawmill Cottages to Loggerheads. My researches (primarily from the geographical sequences of the properties in the 1901 and 1911 Censuses) point to Sawmill Cottages being located near to the bridge over the River Alyn (Pont-y-Mwynwr) on the minor road between Llanferres and Maeshafn.

My candidates at present are ...

Pont-y-Mwynwr Cottage at SJ 1932 6109 adjacent to Pont y Mwynwr House
Primrose Cottage at SJ 1945 6130 about 250m north along the lane branching northwards from the Maeshafn side of the bridge.

I'll need to put boot to ground to check these out, but my preference is on the former with Charles's father being the gardener at the House.

Wherever it is exactly, it must be to the south and east of the modern A494 to be in the census enumeration district it is listed in - that rules out the cottages at Loggerheads just opposite the current entrance to the Colomendy Outdoor Centre.

[MBrockway]

I should clarify that there is a property at Loggerheads known as Sawmill Cottage at OS grid ref SJ 1993 6263.

It's currently up for sale: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-36188985.html

However this property lies to the north of the modern A494 Mold-Ruthin road and is thus outwith the boundaries of the census Enumeration District that contains the Sawmill Cottage where Charles Williams is listed in the 1901 Census.

The geographical sequence of properties in the 1901 Census strongly suggests that the Sawmill Cottage where Charles Williams and his parents actually lived is now known as Pont-y-Mwynwr Cottage at OS grid ref SJ 1932 6109. It's adjacent to the Miner's Bridge on the Llanferres-Maeshafn road.

The other possibility is Primrose Cottage at SJ 1945 6130.

I can happily demonstrate this to everyone if you wish, but it does involve quite a lot of description and or maps!

Mark