2nd Lt Charles Coburn, 18th Bn KRRC

[rugbyremembers]

COBURN, CHARLES - can anyone add to the information from CWGC? Clearly at 32, he had a professional and sporting career (law). Grateful for any insights.





Second Lieutenant

King's Royal Rifle Corps

18th Bn.

Age:

32

Date of Death:

31/07/1917

Additional information:

Son of Henry Isaacs Coburn, of 22, Pandora Rd., N.W.6, and the late Adah Coburn; husband of Dorothy Lindo Coburn (nee Henry), of 50, Canfield Gardens, London, N.W.6. Educated at St. Paul's School and Merton College, Oxford. B.A., B.C.L. Joined Inns of Court O.T.C., October, 1916. Commissioned April, 1917.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Stephen

Just a snippet of family info:

His father born c1849 died 1945 was a lawyer.

Like his father Charles had the middle name Isaacs.

His wife lived 1887-1932

Dave

[MBrockway]

Stephen,

Here's Coburn's obituary from the 1917 KRRC Chronicle:

2ND LIEUT. CHARLES COBURN,

Educated at St. Paul's School and Merton College, Oxford, where he obtained his B.A. and B.C.L., he enlisted under the Derby Scheme in December 1915, and, after passing through one of the Berkhamsted Cadet Schools, obtained a temporary commission in the Regiment in April 1917, and was posted to the 18th Battalion. He went to France in July, and was reported missing after going into action for his first venture against the village of Hollebeke, on July 31st, 1917.

The adjutant of his Battalion writes: "During the short time he was with us he showed himself to be a gallant, reliable, and devoted officer."

He was the son of Mr. Henry J. [sic - it seems this should read "I"] Coburn, of 40, King's Gardens, N.W.

It seems, like his father, Charles Coburn was also a lawyer. King's Gardens appears to be in NW6 off West End Lane about halfway between Kilburn and West Hampstead, and is within half a mile of both the addresses mentioned in the posts above.

The Inns of Court OTC was, of course, in Berkhamsted by this stage of the War.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[rugbyremembers]

Mark, Many thanks indeed

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Some further discussion pasted here from a Topic on one of the other Rosslyn Park KRRC men ....

Mark's post ...

Stephen,

I'm afraid that's all the info I have on [Coburn]. He was only at the front line a month before he was killed during Passchendaele

I did some digging to see why a young man with a Kilburn/West Hampstead address might be connected to Rosslyn Park FC, but the only theory I could come up with was it dated back to his time at St Paul's School, which was then sited between Hammersmith Road and Talgarth Road in Hammersmith, not that far from Richmond Park ... but even that's pretty tenuous

Dowson in Wimbledon at least is very local!

Is there anything specific you'd like me to investigate on Coburn? I could give you some more detail on 18/KRRC's action at Hollebeke perhaps?

Cheers,

Mark

Stephen's reply ...

Indeed you did, sorry for oversight. Coburn was ex-merton and we have a few, so there may be a pals link, but I agree St Paul's the likelier connection.

RPFC at that time played in Richmond Old Deer Park.

Mark's response ...

It's still speculative even with St Paul's - the school was then in Hammersmith, not Castelnau, and neither are that close to the Old Deer Park.

One of the reasons the school abandoned the cramped site in Hammersmith/Baron's Court was the lack of sport facilities. Apparently the boys were going to playing fields in Osterley Park by tube. If they were doing that, then certainly a bus ride to Rosslyn Park's grounds in the Old Deer Park would not be out of the question.

I've always thought of St. Paul's as a rowing school for obvious reasons, but I understand they have an equally fine tradition in rugby football - the school was one of the founding members of the RFU - so links with Rosslyn Park would not be surprising.

Oops! Just realised we should probably be putting these theories into Coburn's topic, not Dowson's! [hence me pasting this here!]

Cheers,

Mark

[rugbyremembers]

St Pauls is indeed a multi-talented school, although as a club man, we fall foul of their no-club policy, about which I shall not grumble in these pages...

PS anything on 18KRRC at Hollebeke very useful.

As I learn more, and discover 'clusters' of RPFC fallen, we may detour on our tour itinerary to seek them out. Gallipoli probably too far, and very little rugby played there...

[rugbyremembers]

Aha! 8 stops on the North London line, West Hampstead to Kew Gardens (RPFC were where Ldn Welsh are now, near to the Pagoda in Kew). Probably 30 minutes in the days when trains worked.

Must get on with some work...!

[MBrockway]

PS anything on 18KRRC at Hollebeke very useful.

Stephen,

I'm afraid the 18th Battalion War Records section in the 1917 KRRC Chronicle is a little terse - I guess 1917 was a difficult year!

There's no mention of 2Lt Coburn joining the battalion in early July.

At the end of June 1917, the battalion was in billets in the Rouklosville area.

On 01 Jul 1917 they moved to Chippawa Camp where they were employed in work details unloading ammunition etc. until 11 Jul when they marched back to Rouklosville where they trained for the next attack.

On 23 Jul they marched to De Zon Camp near La Clytte (modern De Klijte).

On 24 Jul they relieved the 15/Londons (Civil Service Rifles) in the sub-sector south of the Ypres-Commines Canal in front of Hollebeke and to the east of St Eloi.

The battalion held this sector from 24th - 31st July. Artillery fire was very active and caused many casualties.

On the 31 Jul 1917 the attack was launched under the most unfavourable conditions - the weather had broken on 27 Jul and the ground had become so churned up it was almost impossible to move. A thick mist and drizzling rain made progress slow. The enemy held their line by machine gun posts cleverly hidden in shell holes and brought a withering fire to bear on the attacking party.

All this combined to bring the attack to a standstill just short of the objective - Hollebeke.

Losses were so heavy that the battalion had to be withdrawn the same night.

There are no battalion casualty figures in the 18/KRRC section of the 1917 KRRC Chronicle.

The only entry for a Coburn in the Officer Casualty List at the back of the 1917 KRRC Chronicle is ...

Coburn, W.C. 2nd Lieut. - Wounded and Missing 22 Aug 1917

Either this is a different 2Lt Coburn (and the initials are incorrect after all) or it is a mistake perhaps reflective of the confusion of the Hollebeke attack and a delay in posting him as Missing. His body was never recovered. He is remembered on the Menin Gate.

CWGC has only "our" Charles Coburn in the KRRC killed in 1917 and Coburn's obituary elsewhere in the same KRRC Chronicle volume has the Date of Death as 31st July 1917 (see earlier Post), so a mistake is the most likely explanation.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

On 24 Jul they relieved the 15/Londons (Civil Service Rifles) in the sub-sector south of the Ypres-Commines Canal in front of Hollebeke and to the east of St Eloi.

Cheers,

Mark

Stephen,

This sector was the area around the White Chateau captured by the Civil Service Rifles and 6/Londons (City of London Rifles) in June 1917 at the Battle of Messines.

There's an excellent annotated aerial photo on p.104 in Jill Knight's excellent The Civil Service Rifles in the Great War - 'All Bloody Gentleman' (recommended reading BTW) but I'm not going to paste it here.

Just before this relief by 18/KRRC, the CSRs had been re-united with their pre-War Adjutant, who returned as their Commanding Officer. Interestingly LtCol 'Gasper' Parish was also a KRRC man. The CSRs were a territorial unit affiliated to the KRRC and very much in the rifles tradition. 'Gasper' Parish had been attached to them before the War. With both battalions also having a strong London connection there must have been a good deal of friendly banter during the changearound!

I'd have thought there's a very high chance that Rosslyn Park FC players served in the Civil Service Rifles.

Cheers,

Mark

[Guest linlord]

I have read the accounts of the movements of the 18th Kings Royal Rifles with interest, as my grandfather, Private Thomas McIntyre of the same battalion was also killed on 31st July 1917 in the attack south of Ypres, the main objective being Hollebeke.

I have a short account of the battle, with eye witness reports describing the fighting around the village and mentioning the White Chateau, handed down to me by my grandmother, but have no other personal information about my grandfather, except that he has no known grave and that he is commemorated on the Menin Gate. His service record was apparently destroyed by enemy bombing in the last war.

Are there any other sources of information where I could possibly find out more, I would appreciate any help.

Linda.

[MBrockway]

I have read the accounts of the movements of the 18th Kings Royal Rifles with interest, as my grandfather, Private Thomas McIntyre of the same battalion was also killed on 31st July 1917 in the attack south of Ypres, the main objective being Hollebeke.

I have a short account of the battle, with eye witness reports describing the fighting around the village and mentioning the White Chateau, handed down to me by my grandmother, but have no other personal information about my grandfather, except that he has no known grave and that he is commemorated on the Menin Gate. His service record was apparently destroyed by enemy bombing in the last war.

Are there any other sources of information where I could possibly find out more, I would appreciate any help.

Linda.

Linda,

A big welcome to the Rifles family here on the Forum!

The relevant material in the KRRC Chronicle is quoted in full above. I'm away from home with work at the moment, but I'll have a check of my records once I'm back to see if I have anything new since Sep last year.

Pal Perth Digger has been doing a lot of work on the 18th Btn (Arts & Crafts) KRRC. He may have more to add if he spots this!

We'd both be very interested in your eye witness account - could you post them here at all?

Cheers,

Mark