allieg2000 Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Hi All I am trying to locate some details about my great grandad - Horace Arthur Bowers. I have very limited information - he was born in 1897 in Radford, Nottingham and married Frances Emily Whitworth in 1923 they had 2 sons Donald and Harry. His Farthers name was Harry Bowers born 1865. His son Don who is my grandad died recently but did inform me he was in the Sherwood Foresters Does any one have any information or could possible point me in the right direction as I really do not have a clue where to start - I have tried searching on ancestry.com but to no avail Thanks Alison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Hi, Welcome to the forum. Hopefully one of the Sherwood's collectors will be able to help, but in the meantime this is the only medal index card (MIC) I could find for a Horace Bowers in the right regiment..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RED47 Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 There is a Horace A Bowers shown on Ancestry in the 1901 census as living in Connaught Street, Notiingham with his father Harry. There is also a Horace Arthur Bowers in the 1911 Census There does not seem to be a Medal Card for a H A Bowers with the Sherwood Foresters but a Horace Bowers with the Notts & Derby Regiment. You should be able to follow up from there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Welcome to the forum Alison the date (although it looks like he may have arrived a week or 2 later than the rest of the battalion) and service numbers are consistent with the 1/7th (Robin Hood) Bn which was a TF unit with the 139th (Notts & Derby) Bde of the 46th (North Midland) Division. TF units were renumbered during the early months of 1917 hence the two numbers. cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k.skinner Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 There are pension records for a Horace A Bowers, ties in with MIC posted, hope it's your man, lots of information there, one of the experts hopefully will confirm if it is, good luck, Regards Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Hi Alison Welcome to the Forum. I have looked at Horace's pension papers and saved a few interesting images from them. Seems he suffered from a wound to the leg during the war. He was a lace threader by trade working for J Smith & Son's in Nottingham before he joined up in 1913. You can't send me a message yet as you have to have 10 posts before being possible. I will put them on here for now but when you can send me your email address I can then send you the original files which will be better resolution. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmor58 Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Welcome to the forum. Hope you manage to find the information you require. jasmor58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 Hope these add a little more to your information. I'll add some more when I have more time tomorrow. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 June , 2009 Share Posted 20 June , 2009 There does not seem to be a Medal Card for a H A Bowers with the Sherwood Foresters but a Horace Bowers with the Notts & Derby Regiment. Just to clarify ... the Sherwood Foresters and the Notts and Derbyshire Regiment are one and the same. The full title of the regiment was The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment). The 1st/7th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters was better known as the Robin Hood Rifles and had its roots in the 1859 rifle volunteer movement. It had a cap badge based on the Rifle Brigade pattern and completely different from the other Sherwood Forester battalions. Bear that in mind if you find any photos of your man. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Mark Were the Robin Hood's originally the 3rd (Nottinghamshire) Volunteer Battalion? I imagine the 4th Volunteers became the 1/8th Sherwood Foresters when they became territorials. Interesting that all the papers only ever say Notts & Derby, not Sherwood Foresters. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allieg2000 Posted 21 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Thank you so much everyone for your help - this information is fantastic I checked the 1911 census as advised by RED47 and that has him listed as a lace threader so Jim you paperwork is fantastic thank you so much and again as soon as I can I will email you my addy Thank you everyone - superstars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Mark Were the Robin Hood's originally the 3rd (Nottinghamshire) Volunteer Battalion? I imagine the 4th Volunteers became the 1/8th Sherwood Foresters when they became territorials. Interesting that all the papers only ever say Notts & Derby, not Sherwood Foresters. Jim Jim, Here's an outline of the lineage of the Robin Hood Rifles (courtesy of TF Mills & associates): 1859 - 15 Nov 1st Nottinghamshire (Robin Hood) Rifle Volunteer Corps formed at Nottingham 1881 - 01 Jul 3rd volunteer battalion of The Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire Regiment) (ten companies at Nottingham) 1891 - Dec 1st Nottinghamshire (Robin Hood) Volunteer Rifle Corps 1895 eleventh company formed 1896 twelfth company formed 1900-1901 increased to eighteen companies (including two cyclist), and divided into double-battalion 1908 - 01 Apr 7th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) reorganised in Territorial Force with HQ at Nottingham 1909 - Mar 7th (Robin Hood) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) 1914 - 04 Aug - mobilised 1915 - Mar 1/7th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) reorganised in four companies, less elements to form nucleus of 2/7th Battalion 1918 - 07 May - reduced to cadre 1919 - 14 Jun - disbanded 1920 - 07 Feb 7th (Robin Hood) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) reconstituted in Territorial Army You also asked about the 4th Volunteer Battalion, later the 8th Battalion. As far as I can ascertain, the 4th Volunteer Battalion were designated as 8th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derbys Regt) at the founding of the TF in 1908. When its Second Line unit was formed in September 1914, they would then have been designated 1st/8th and 2nd/8th battalions respectively. Incidentally, like the Robin Hood Rifles, the 4th VB / 8th Sherwood Foresters also had its roots in the rifle volunteer companies movement. HTH! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allieg2000 Posted 21 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Just to clarify ... the Sherwood Foresters and the Notts and Derbyshire Regiment are one and the same. The full title of the regiment was The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment). The 1st/7th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters was better known as the Robin Hood Rifles and had its roots in the 1859 rifle volunteer movement. It had a cap badge based on the Rifle Brigade pattern and completely different from the other Sherwood Forester battalions. Bear that in mind if you find any photos of your man. Cheers, Mark Hi Mark After recently clearing out my grandad's belonging I have a picture which we believe to be of Horace and he has a cap badge but it doesn't mean anything to me - is this the badge you were referring to above?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Mark Thank you for all the information. Not many units that don't have a fantastic source of info. such as yourself on this Forum;never fails to amaze me. Alison If you look at the posts over the last couple of days you will see how some tally up their number. I am not advising you to follow suit but a few here and there won't hurt until you have 10. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allieg2000 Posted 21 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 June , 2009 Share Posted 21 June , 2009 Hi Mark After recently clearing out my grandad's belonging I have a picture which we believe to be of Horace and he has a cap badge but it doesn't mean anything to me - is this the badge you were referring to above?? Hi Allie, Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to higher up - don't you love it when a plan comes together - LOL! This badge is definitely the Robin Hoods Rifles (left below). It is based on the Rifle Brigade badge (right below) which has the traditional rifle regiment maltese cross encircled in a laurel wreath with the strung bugle of the rifles & light infantry units in the central boss. The Rifle Brigade obviously has far more Battle Honours of course and they're included as little scrolls mounted on the laurel wreath as well packing in the cross arms and below the Crown ("Waterloo"). Historically rifles regiments did not carry Regimental Colours (i.e. flags) as they roamed across the battlefield rather than grouping around a standard like line infantry units. Instead they carry their battle honours in their badges. Likewise they did not use drums for signalling on the battlefield, but bugles and whistles, which can be better heard over a distance - hence the strung bugle in the centre of the badge. The standard Sherwood Foresters badge looks something like this: One of the few badges that uses the maltese cross where the regiment doesn't have a direct rifles connection. A word of caution though: I'm away from home at the moment, so I've just grabbed these images by some hasty Googling, rather than from my own reference resources. They're therefore not necessarily completely accurate for the badges in use in WW1. They will give you an idea of the differences nonetheless. Since both the Robin Hood Rifles and the 1st/8th Battalion had their roots in the 1859 rifle volunteer movement, you may well find these two battalions used rifles drill rather than standard infantry drill (e.g. faster paced marching, a reduced set of commands, carrying rifles at the trail rather than the slope, etc.), but I'm no expert on the Sherwood Foresters so I can't be sure of that. In peacetime, most of their senior NCOs would have come from the regular SF battalions & would have been used to the standard drills, so perhaps this is unlikely. Perhaps another Pal can help us out? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebriggs Posted 22 June , 2009 Share Posted 22 June , 2009 One of the few badges that uses the maltese cross where the regiment doesn't have a direct rifles connection. Mark, thats got me thinking. Do you think that the Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regt) have the Maltese Cross on their badge because the Derbyshire Regiment was also the 95th Regt of Foot and formed when the 95th Rifles were redesignated as The Rifle Brigade?? Or is that a very tenuous link Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 25 June , 2009 Share Posted 25 June , 2009 Mark, thats got me thinking. Do you think that the Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regt) have the Maltese Cross on their badge because the Derbyshire Regiment was also the 95th Regt of Foot and formed when the 95th Rifles were redesignated as The Rifle Brigade?? Or is that a very tenuous link Mike Mike, Based purely on gut instinct, I'd say the latter! Renumbering was a routine happening and I can't see any logic in the new user of the number picking up the traditions of the old user of the number unless the re-numbering were through an amalgamation. Certainly I know of no connection between The Rifle Brigade and the Sherwood Foresters apart from the two volunteer battalions having their origins in the 1859 rifle volunteer movement, which in itself is true of the volunteer battalions of many other line regiments. I do know the Bermuda Regiment's maltese cross comes from its rifles origins, as do those of the Leeds Rifles, the Robin Hood Rifles, and the various London rifles units. To be honest, I've long wondered about the background to the connection between the maltese cross and the rifles regiments. I'd be very interested in hearing ALL theories from the Pals! I know a lot of the regimental badges with castles are due to those regiments having a connection with Gibraltar. The squadron badge of RAF 22 Sqn is the greek letter Pi superimposed over a maltese cross. The story behind this is that when 22 Sqn were part of 7th Wing, they often took off over the Wing HQ - hence "22 over 7", hence "Pi"! They were stationed on Malta when the badge was approved, so the maltese cross was included underneath. Perhaps the Derbyshire Regt served as garrison in Malta for a period? What about the Border Regiment? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 21 July , 2009 Share Posted 21 July , 2009 On 16 February 1816, on Wellington's recommendation, the Prince Regent ordered that the 95th should be taken out of the numbered line and renamed The Rifle Brigade. It accordingly took 'the left of the line' 1800 - Experimental Corps of riflemen - Rifle Corps 1802 - 95th (Rifle) Regiment. 1816 - Rifle brigade Notts & Derby - 1823 - 95th Foot 1825 - 95th or Derbyshire foot Could that be the link for the Maltese Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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