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Remembered Today:

Pte Charles Hollox, Civil Service Rifles


grahamhollox

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My father, Charles Henry Hollox enlisted on 17 November 1915 with the 1/15th London Regiment also known as the Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles. He was a Private 1st Class, specialist Signaller, and Regimental Number 532554.

He is recorded as serving in France from 10 December 1916 to 21 March 1918. Among details we know are that on 7 June 1917 he recorded that he was at Messines Ridge and Paschendale . Postcards sent home to his mother, subject to inevitable military censorship, confirm also that he was at Messines in November and Cambrai in December 1917.

On 21/22 March 1918 he was reported missing and he was classified as a prisoner of war until 1 December 1918.

We have established that he was captured at a village called Bus, which is a hamlet in France close to Cambrai, to the west of a village named Ytres. From a German franking stamp mark on a postcard, we gather that he was held as a prisoner in Muenster, probably at Muenster II camp. For part of the time was forced to work in the coal mines. We have limited information of his experiences in these years as, like many servicemen, he was reluctant to talk about the subject, however, we understand that he may have been involved in escape attempts but was caught on each occasion. The book "The Prisoners 1914-18" describes various experiences of POWs in these tough conditions including one where 'accidents,' such as derailing, were caused to coal waggons, such that mining was disrupted. He did once tell me that story but I have no idea whether that was just him recounting what must have been a well-known story or whether he had been involved, but have no confirmation of it. He returned home on 2 December 1918 before discharge to the Army Reservists on 5 February 1919.

I have often wondered if there is any way of confirming where he was held as a POW and any records of his life and experiences as I presume some form of punishment would have resulted if he had been involved in escapes or disruption. If anyone has any ideas on sources or any other relevant information, I would be more than just interested. I am awaiting reports from the Red Cross.

I also have a photgraph used as a postcard by my father, picturing possible aplatoon in which he was a member. It is dated 7 June 1917 and afterwards annotaated as Messines Ridge. He has written the name of each member of the platoon and as this may be relevant to others, I am trying to post this in the Gallery but as a new member, I have so far been unsuccessful. The names which may be relevant to other researchers and families are as follows and I will be pleased to send a copy of this to anyone interested.

Wallace, Hansford, Heard, Humphries, Samuels, Clark,Norris, Hollox (my father), Brockwell, Garwood, Lyons, Orman, Potts, Willson,Knight,Garraway, Payne, Turner, Staples,Dickson, Braysbrook, Skinner, Major Payne, Lt Woods, Captain Davenport, Tomkinson, Pinder,Pritchard, Maish,Knowles, Thompson, Gaddington

IIf anyone could provide any information about any of these people (including my father) and of their experiences in the Great War as part of the 1/15th London Regiment, I would be very interested and grateful.[/size][/size]

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..

We have established that he was captured at a village called Bus, which is a hamlet in France close to Cambrai, to the west of a village named Ytres. From a German franking stamp mark on a postcard, we gather that he was held as a prisoner in Muenster, probably at Muenster II camp. For part of the time was forced to work in the coal mines.

..

I have often wondered if there is any way of confirming where he was held as a POW and any records of his life and experiences as I presume some form of punishment would have resulted if he had been involved in escapes or disruption. If anyone has any ideas on sources or any other relevant information, I would be more than just interested. I am awaiting reports from the Red Cross.

Graham,

Bear in mind that using PoWs as forced labour was legally contentious under the Hague Conventions etc., but with their acute manpower shortage the Germans did not hesitate to use Allied PoWs as labour in both World Wars.

I understand they handled this by delaying registering PoWs with the International Red Cross giving them latitude to make use of prisoners before they became formally recorded as PoWs.

Bear that in mind when you interpret any dates you get from the Red Cross.

Cheers,

Mark

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Graham,

I presume you know of the late Jill Knight's "The Civil Service Rifles in the Great War" (Pen & Sword), which draws on the regimental history published in the 1920s (available in reprint from Naval & Military Press), plus a great deal of new and original research and upwards of 200 photographs.

Mick

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Mark

Many thanks for your offer which I'd be glad to take up, but I am not allowed access to the PM at present!!!! I have e-mailed the admin team with my e-mail address to see if they will help. Many thanks. Graham

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MIck,

Many thanks for your interest. Yes, I have that book. Also, for your and others' information, I have also copies of the following which are extremely helpful.

"They also served" by Cecil Thomas - describing the experiences of a POW who worked in coal mines in Dortmund.[/size] "The Prisoners 1914-18" by Robert Jackson - describing a number of escapes, among other things. "Black Bread and Barbed Wire" by Michael Moynihan - detailing life in camps Also, the official "History of the Prince of Wales Own Civil Service Rifles printed by Wyman's in 1921 for the regiment.

Best regards. Graham

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To Mark and others

Much to my surprise, I have now managed to resize the photograph mentioned earlier and all being well, it is attached:

Back row: Wallace, Hansford, Heard, Humphries, Samuels, Clark, Norris, Hollox (my father), Brockwell.

Middle row: Garwood, Lyons, Orman, Potts, Willson,Knight,Garraway, Payne, Turner, Staples.

Front row: Dickson, Braybrook, Skinner, Major Payne, Lt Woods, Captain Davenport, Tomkinson, Pinder.

Seated: Pritchard, Maish,Knowles, Thompson, Gaddington

If anyone could provide any information about any of these people (including my father, as like many, he spoke little) and of their experiences in the Great War as part of the 1/15th London Regiment, I would be very interested and grateful

[/i]

Cheers

Graham Hollox

post-46417-1242981252.jpg

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Graham,

A named photograph like this is GWF gold!

I imagine that Major Payne is the Company commander and Lieutenant Woods is the Platoon commander. Some digging in Jill Knight's book for those two officers' names may well identify the platoon and Coy.

I'd also check the London Gazette for the details of Lt. Woods's commission. That could give you an "earliest possible" date for the photograph.

Worth check the LG for info on the major too.

Could you check your list of the men on the Second Row (your Front Row)? There's another officer between Lt Woods and Corporal Davelport and you only have two officers named. You also have two men listed to the Corporal's left and there's only one man on the photo.

Cheers,

Mark

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Graham,

A named photograph like this is GWF gold!

I imagine that Major Payne is the Company commander and Lieutenant Woods is the Platoon commander. Some digging in Jill Knight's book for those two officers' names may well identify the platoon and Coy.

I'd also check the London Gazette for the details of Lt. Woods's commission. That could give you an "earliest possible" date for the photograph.

Worth check the LG for info on the major too.

Could you check your list of the men on the Second Row (your Front Row)? There's another officer between Lt Woods and Corporal Davelport and you only have two officers named. You also have two men listed to the Corporal's left and there's only one man on the photo.

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,

Many thanks for your comments, advice and sharp eyesight. I really hope that some descendnets of others in the photograph are found and that they have more information than I have.

I think if you go back to my list of people in my front row, you'll see it is correct in number. My error, now that I look again at my father's somewhat smudged pencilled postcard from 92 years ago, is that the correct rank for Davenport should not be Corporal but should be Captain (abbreviations used were Cpl and Cpt). I will do my best to go back and correct this.

Best regards. Graham

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Graham,

I've been hunting for the MICs for these men, but with surprisingly little luck: only found your father so far. Are the names you've given written on the reverse of the photo?

If so, then could you post a picture so we can check for transcription errors?

Re your Corporal Davelport and the missing officer in the second row: I have found a 2/Lt Paul DAVENPORT, 15th Londons, later Captain and Mentioned in Despatches (apparently in LG dated 25 May 1917 - but I've not checked that yet).

It looks to me like your Second Row is actually ...

[L/Cpl] Dickson, [Cpl] Braysbrook, [sjt] Skinner, Major Payne, Lt Woods, 2/Lt Davenport, Cpl Tomkinson, Pinder.

A picture of the listed names may help here too.

Cheers,

Mark

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My error, now that I look again at my father's somewhat smudged pencilled postcard from 92 years ago, is that the correct rank for Davenport should not be Corporal but should be Captain (abbreviations used were Cpl and Cpt). I will do my best to go back and correct this.

Sorry - our posts crossed!

Capt Davenport should be a useful way into researching this unit via the London Gazette (searchable via the Internet - see elsewhere here on the Forum) - he should have entries covering his Commission and his various promotions, as well as his Mentioned in Despatches from 25 May 1917. Let us know what you find.

I'd still appreciate a scan of the names if possible! :rolleyes: I've searched for over a third of the named men and only found Davenport (your Davelport) and your father so far! I'm hanging fire now till I see the image of the names.

Cheers,

Mark

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My father, Charles Henry Hollox ... [was] with the 1/15th London Regiment. ... [on] 21/22 March 1918 ... he was captured at a village called Bus .. close to Cambrai, to the west of a village named Ytres.

..

[A photograph of his platoon exists] .. dated 7 June 1917 and afterwards annotated as Messines Ridge.

..

Pals,

Can anyone with access to the 1st/15th Londons (Civil Service Rifles) War Diary check these two dates just to confirm the whereabouts of the CSRs?

Clearly the 21/22 March is the Kaiserschlacht and is a very plausible date for becoming a POW :mellow:

Cheers,

Mark

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Mark

I have tried to scan the writing but by the time it is reduced below the permitted 100KB, it is illegible and so I don't think it is worth posting. I am confident now that the names are correct as in my list, now amended including Davenport(!). Rather than give an e-mail address open to all, and similar to your suggestion a few posts ago, are you able to contact me with an e-mail address via PM as I am still not allowed into this route to contact you. I will then send you the full size scanned copy which is readily readable.

Re Davenport, I have found a picture of a P. Davenport on page 24 of Jill Knight's book - there are 9 references in all to him so hopefully, there's an interesting story when I've looked at them. It seems he survived the war as indicated on p 220 of that book, as he apparently co-authored "The History of the Civil Service Rifles" in 1921. I also am having trouble tracing other names. I suppose it is possible by this time that other soldiers from other regiments may have become incorporated into this group.

Delighted at your interest

Graham

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Delighted at your interest

Graham

The Adjutant of the CSRs, "Gasper" Parish was a KRRC man - hence my initial interest in the CSRs. He was quite a character: at the outbreak of the war he commandeered a double decker bus in The Strand to go and fetch ammo from the Hyde Park Barracks back to the CSR HQ at Somerset House by waving his sword at it!

I'll have another go at PMing you my e-mail address. With a few more posts under your belt you may well be reachable now!

Cheers,

Mark

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Sorry Graham - you're still not reachable. Reply to this now and that'll take you to 10 posts, which may well be the threshold B)

Cheers,

Mark

Let's try for 10 then!!

I've checked other names from the photograph and so far, it's nothing other than a possible similarlity in appearance of The man "Thompson" who seems similar to Ralph Thompson in Jill Knight's book!

Cheers

Graham

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No war diary, but I do have the original Civil |Services Rifles in the Great War.

On the Roll of Officers is:

Capt. Davenport, P., M.C.

Sec. Lieut. T. Woods

No Major Payne though....

On 2nd June 1917 the battalion was in preparation for the Messines attack:

On the whole a very happy time had been spent at Moringhem, and there was no great anxiety to leave the place on the 31st of May, when the Battalion returned by train from St. Omer to Poperinghe, where, as they marched out of the station, the troops were greeted at once with a few shells—just as a reminder that they were back in the Salient.

The discomforts of the Ypres Salient were rarely more forcibly illustrated than on the afternoon of the arrival at the so-called tented camp in Dominion Lines. The march from Poperinghe Station took place in the afternoon, and the Battalion marched into Dominion Lines with visions of a comfortable camp and a welcome cup of tea! The battalion were doomed to disappointment, for the "camp" proved to be a strip of waste ground, very dusty, and without even a blade of grass on it. There were a few bivouac sheets to be issued to each Company, and there were about three bell tents for officers. Beyond this there was not a stick of camp equipment of any kind. The disappointment was all the keener because the Area Commandant was a Civil Service Rifles officer, and it was thought he might have treated nil own Regiment a little better. The other three Battalions of the Brigade were comfortably housed in huts.

The country all around presented a very different aspect from that seen in the autumn of 1916, when the Division came to Ypres for a rest. On all sides one now saw signs of the coming offensive the roads were lined with big ammunition dumps, a few of which were blown up nightly by Bosche artillery fire, which had increased very considerably during the past month. The English artillery, too, had increased their activity, and some wonderful bombardments were witnessed both by day and night. The Bosche, in fact, could not have had much doubt of what was in store for him. The only doubt in his mind would be how much longer he would be allowed to remain in his front line trenches.

A mysterious-looking enclosure, marked "Segregated Area," attracted a good deal of attention from the curious among the troops, who, after reading the notice outside, that no horses could be admitted, discovered that many tanks were housed there. Members of the Civil Service Rifles who had been on the Somme heaved a sigh of relief when they learnt that, although tanks were co-operating in the coming attack, none were allotted a definite part in the task of their Battalion.

The 2nd of June was devoted to final preparations for the battle. Officers got their men together for a little extra talk, and all ranks eagerly studied maps and aeroplane photographs, of which there was a generous supply and which showed clearly how thoroughly the artillery had prepared the way. There was an atmosphere of suppressed excitement similar to that of the days before High Wood, but on this occasion there was greater confidence, inspired by the unmistakable evidence on all sides of the magnificent work of the artillery and the Air Force.

Company Commanders went up to reconnoitre the support positions which the Battalion was to occupy the next day, and working parties were sent out along the cross-country tracks, which had been made to ease the traffic along the roads. These parties were occupied all day in the pleasant task of filling up the shell holes which the Bosche had made overnight.

I Mr battle surplus to be left behind when an Infantry Battalion took pari in an attack had by this time been clearly defined l>v General 1 eadquarters, and consequently a large party of “ Non-starters “ joined the Divisional Reinforcement Camp before the battalion left for the trenches on the 3rd of June. Those included, in addition to two of the regular Company Commanders, representatives of every platoon and specialist section in the Battalion—picked N.C.O.'s and men who would form a worthy nucleus on which to build a new Battalion in the event of heavy casualties being suffered. The Divisional Reinforcement Camp was commanded by Lieut.-Colonel Warrender, who had left the Cavil Service Rifles the previous November to command the 47th Divisional School at Poperinghe.

Steve.

P.S. There is a nice portrait of Francis Woodbine Parish in the book as well.

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No war diary, but I do have the original Civil |Services Rifles in the Great War.

...

P.S. There is a nice portrait of Francis Woodbine Parish in the book as well.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post all that Steve!

My guess is that the platoon photo was taken at Moringhem just before the battalion moved to the build-up area for Messines. The date is probably meant to mean this is the unit that took part in Messines on 7 June 1917. The Salient certainly sounds a little too "hot" for group photographs!

Here's the only pic I have of "Gasper" Parish:

post-20192-1243014771.jpg

He is apparently buried somewhere in Hawarden near to me here in Chester and I'm hoping to get more specific detail eventually so I can visit his grave, but this is a backburner project at the moment, although if anyone can help .... ;)

Cheers,

Mark

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Snap! Same picture, though perhaps a little less grainy.

Steve.

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Not quite true - I'd forgotten he's also on a group photograph taken at Somerset House in 1914 sent to me by T.F.Mills:

post-20192-1243016027.jpg

[Courtesy of TF Mills]

Cheers,

Mark

Whoopee - my 1,000th post!!

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And thanks to Mike S (shinglma) I know he's also on page 28 of Jill Knight's book!

Incidentally the portrait above, that Steve also has, was also sent to me by TF Mills ... for which many thanks!

Cheers,

Mark

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Perhaps the mention of Corporal Davenport was not too wrong!!

London Gazette 10-6-1915

15th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own Civil Service Riftes); Corporal Paul Davenport to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 11th June, 1915.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/291...upplements/5625

His M.C. was Gazetted in the London Gazette of 21-8-1917

Awarded the Military Cross

2nd Lt. Paul Davenport, Lond. R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. When the officer commanding his company was killed he took command, and by his resource and fearlessness successfully captured the objective, and held it in spite of intense artillery fire.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/302...upplements/8364

Other Gazette entries mentioning Paul Davenport:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/191...d-war-i/start=1

The battalion History records Sec. Lt. P. Davenport as being Company Commander of "C" Company on 7-6-1917.

(As noted on the following two Gazette entries, the second correcting the first, he was made acting Captain on 8th October 1916.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29899/supplements/481

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/299...upplements/1444

Steve.

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By the way, I see page 102 of Jill Knight's book has a picture of "A" Company officers and NCOs in front of some familiar looking trees (ok, so there is not a lot of variation in trees, I know...) before the battle of Messines.

Both Davenport and Parish (acting CO) appear in an officers photo from August 1917 on page 109 of Jill Knight's book, coincidentally sat next to each other (Parish was CO, Davenport was Adjutant). Davenport is almost definitely the same officer. Sec. Lt. T Woods also appears, again identifiable as the same man in your pic.

Davenports MC was awarded at Messines, but the citation reads rather oddly, as he seems to have already been Company C.O., however Captain Ind, the Adjutant, was killed on 7-6-1917, so that may have been the position he took over as.

The only Major shown is Major H F M Warne. He also looks very similar to "your" Major! His full name was Herbert Francis Maitland Warne. He was also a POW later in the war. He was appointed temp. Major from 11-4-1916.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29596/pages/5212

Steve.

P.S. Oh, wow. I just realised that the CSR book I own has a pic of the former owner on page 129 of ABG!

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The only Major shown is Major H F M Warne. He also looks very similar to "your" Major! His full name was Herbert Francis Maitland Warne. He was also a POW later in the war. He was appointed temp. Major from 11-4-1916.

Fantastic Steve!

I'm just working on the reverse of the postcard that Graham's sent me trying to get the clarity as good as poss. I'll post it shortly - I'm still wrestling with a better transcription!

It definitely reads Major Warne, not Payne.

Cheers,

Mark

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Pals,

Having some more success finding the MICs working from the original names. I'll post an image of this shortly.

Meantime have found one poignant fact: I've tentatively ID-ed Serjeant Skinner as SKINNER, Herbert C, LCpl later Sjt 1716, then renumbered Sjt 530193. (He's mistranscribed as Lan Rgt in Ancestry)

He was Killed in Action on 7 June 1917 within days of this photograph.

Name: SKINNER, HERBERT CHARLES

Initials: H C

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment/Service: London Regiment (Prince of Wales' Own Civil Service Rifles)

Unit Text: 1st/15th Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 07/06/1917

Service No: 530193

Additional information: Son of Herbert Frank and Eliza Jane Skinner, of 23, Rigault Rd., Fulham, London.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 54.

Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

post-20192-1243023648.jpg

+ Sjt Herbert Charles SKINNER +

May he rest in peace. We remember him.

Mark

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The Roll of Honour of men who served with the Battalion in the 1921 History is grouped by initial of surname but nor sorted into alphabetical order which doesn't make it easy to search.....

There are one or two of the rarer names represented, which are presumably the men in the photo:

Garwood - E H Garwood - probably 6241 / 533095 Private Ernest H Garwood (BWM/VM)

Potts - F Potts - probably 4730 / 532082 Private Frederick Potts (BWM/VM)

Pinder - H F Pinder - probably 4312 / 531777 Sgt Harold F Pinder (BWM/VM)

Maish - J H Maish - probably 3688 / 531342 Pte John H Maish, 15 Star/BWM/VM (France 27-10-1915, Disembodied 9-3-1919)

Though you've probably got these already, Mark....

Steve.

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Pals,

Here's the back of Graham's photo showing the names:

post-20192-1243025471.jpg

As Graham warned, even the high resolution scan is not very clear and I've had to compress it to be able to post.

I've started going through checking the transciption and identifying the men. This is where I have got so far ...

+ means confident identification

- means possible candidate

? means tentative identification (some issue still remaining)

the surnames in upper case are my transcription and possible variants

the surname at the end in lower case is Graham's original transcription

Back row:

WALLACE - Wallace

- WALLACE, Arthur F, 5815 then 532836

- (not) WALLACE, Charles Vivian, 2521- SWB Discharged sickness 11 Mar 1915

- WALLACE, George, 535422

- WALLACE, Robert C, 6229 then 533084

- (not) WALLACE, Sjt James, 1281 then 530035

- WALLACE, William C, 534348

HANSFORD/HANSFOOD/HARSFORD - Hansford

- HANSFORD, Frederick A, 533098 then RAF 130684

- HANSFORD, Samuel G, later Cpl, 2575 then 530678 Discharged 15 Jan 1918

+ HEARD, Leslie V, 6256/533108

HUMPHRIES - Humphries

- HUMPHRIES, Arthur, 6th LR 3761, 15th LR 321457, 23rd LR 718297

- HUMPHRIES, Edward A, 4229 then 531716

- HUMPHRIES, Henry G, 7308 then 533918

- HUMPHRIES, John Meredith (Stacey), 4820 then comm 26 Jun 1917 - 2Lt, Lt in 20 Londons

SAMUELS - Samuels

CLARK - Clark

NORRIS - Norris

+ HOLLOX, Charles M, 5415/532554 (Graham's father)

BROCKWELL/BROCKWALL/CROCKWELL - Brockwell

Middle Row:

EARWOOD/GARWOOD - Garwood

LYONS - Lyons

+ ORMAN, George W, 6235/533089 - Okman

POTTS - Potts

WILLSON - Willson

KNIGHT - Knight

GA..AWAY/GARRAWAY/G.OODWAY/G.OOKWAY - Garraway

PAYNE/PAGE - Payne

TURNER - Turner

STAPLES - Staples

Front Row:

L/CPL DICKSON - Dickson

CPL BRAGBROOK/BRAYBROOK - Braysbrook

+ SKINNER, Herbert C, LCpl then Sjt 1716 then Sjt 530193 (KiA 7 June 1917) - Skinner

+ MAJOR HERBERT FRANCES MAITLAND WARNE - Major Payne,

LT. T WOODS - Lt Woods

+ CAPT PAUL DAVENPORT - Cpt Davelport

+ TOMLINSON, Leonard, Cpl, 532333 then Labour Corps 637497 - Tomkinson,

PINDER/PENDON/PANDER/PANDON) - Pinder

? PINDER, Harold F, Sjt 4312 then Sjt 531777 (but cannot see any stripes)

Seated:

PRITCHARD/PAITCHARD/PAITCHAND/PRITCHAND - Pritchard

MAISH - Walsh

- MAISH, John H, 3688/531342

- MAISH, Ashton J, 231945, then Labour Corps 531276

KNOWLES - Knowles

THOMPSON - Thompson

+ SADDINGTON, Horace H, 6239/533093

Over to you Pals!

Cheers,

Mark

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