What's the difference?

[andyelliman]

I have my grandfather's paybooks which show he was reg number s/64 and attested into 'a' company 12th (Service) Battalion of Rifle Brigade on 3rd September 1914.They arrived in France on 21st July 1915.

From the records on this site I see there is a second unit which seems to have the same history,that of 12th Service Battalion of The Kings Royal Rifle Corps.

Can anyone tell me how they differentiate as I am confused?

A couple of years ago I posted a number of runners communications relating to the Bareilly Bde on 25th September 1915,the Fromelles attack close to Loos.I found them inside his paybook.

I'm now wondering which exact unit he belonged to.

I would be grateful for any history of the correct unit post Loos.

Thanks.

Max.

[jay dubaya]

Hi Max,

the RB and the KRRC are two different regiments, your grandfather belonged to the 12th (S) Bn. RB. The word 'service' was added to all the Kitchener battalions,

Jon

[paulgranger]

Somebody is bound to come up with a more detailed answer, but the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, which I think was originally the 60th (Royal American) Foot predates the Rifle Brigade by a good 40 years and more. Both the KRRC and the Rifle Brigade had a 12th (Service) Battalion, and both battalions were in 60th Brigade, 20th (Light) Division from September 1914 to November 1916. Neither of the battalions were ever in the Bareilly Brigade, though 3rd Bn KRRC was briefly in late 1914, but 20th Div seems to have been involved in a subsidiary attack on 25 September, in which the Indian Corps was also involved, so your grandfather may well have carried messages between his battalion and units of the Bareilly Brigade. As to what unit he was in, I should think that it was the Rifle Brigade, rather than the KRRC.

A useful website is http://www.warpath.orbat.com/divs/20_div.htm#60_bde, and Ray Westlake's book 'British Battalions on the Somme' will fill some gaps for 1916.

Cheers!

[MBrockway]

Max,

The Rifle Brigade and the King's Royal Rifle Corps were sister regiments, entirely separate, but sharing a common Depot, common facilities, and most importantly common traditions and ethos.

As sister regiments, several of the early Kitchener Service battalions were allocated to their brigades/divisions in pairs.

Thus 12/RB (your grandfather's battalion) served with 12/KRRC (my grandfather's battalion) in 60th Brigade in 20th (Light) Divn. As they were in the same brigade, the two separate battalions shared most of their Great War experiences.

Two other brigades were actually entirely made up of RB and KRRC battalions:

• 7/RB, 8/RB, 9/RB, 7/KRRC & 8/KRRC in 41st Brigade, 14th (Light) Divn; and
• 10/RB, 11/RB, 10/KRRC & 11/KRRC in 59th Brigade, 20th (Light) Divn.

Confusingly these were known as rifle brigades, since they were entirely composed of riflemen! And to add to this confusion, the Rifle Brigade was not a brigade, but a regiment, and the King's Royal Rifle Corps was not a corps, but likewise a regiment!

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

A couple of years ago I posted a number of runners communications relating to the Bareilly Bde on 25th September 1915,the Fromelles attack close to Loos.I found them inside his paybook.

Max.

Max

There's a lot of material on the September 1915 Fromelles attack. This topic: Battle of Loos, 12 Rifle Brigade has links to most of the other related threads (though I notice you actually posted in that topic!)

Take note too, that the Black Watch war diaries covering the Fromelles attack, mistakenly refer to 12th KRRC at several points when clearly it's 12th Rifle Brigade doing the business - 12/KRRC remained in the British front line giving supporting fire on the left flank of the attack. From 20th Divn, only 12/RB advanced from the British trenches.

To trace the rest of your grandfather's war, you should focus on 12th Rifle Brigade.

I can recommend Inglefield's History of the 20th (Light) Division as a good way of getting an overview of the battalion's activities throughout the War. It'll be a good springboard into more detailed research.

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Max,

On the 25/9/15 the 12th Rifle Brigade went into action alongside, and just after the Bareilly Brigade. At 7.30 am orders reached Battalion Headquarters to advance and join up with the Indians. By this time however all telphone communication with the assaulting companies were cut and it was not until 8.25 that "D" Company received its orders by runners and went over the top.

This was at Pietre with the Meerut Division assaulting Mauquissait, one of the very bloody subsidiary attacks to Loos.

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

LS,

The KRRC were originally the 62nd Royal Americans before becoming the 60th Royal Americans.

Andy

[Perth Digger]

I've only just seen this query, so sorry if I'm a bit late (and probably off message). Although they were separate regiments in WW1, the links between the Rifle Brigade and the KRRC (60th Foot) go back to the Light Division in the Peninsular War, when the famous 5/60th was brigaded with the light battalions, the 95th and 43rd. All were skirmishing battalions, most famously under Black Bob Craufurd.

Lt-Gen. Sir Christopher Wallace, Chairman of the Royal Green Jackets Trustees (who run the museum in Winchester), published The King's Royal Rifle Corps . . . the 60th Rifles: A Brief History 1755 to 1965 (Royal Green Jackets Museum Trust 2005): 0-9549370-0-7. £17.95. It has 25pp on the KRRC in WW1.

Mike

I have my grandfather's paybooks which show he was reg number s/64 and attested into 'a' company 12th (Service) Battalion of Rifle Brigade on 3rd September 1914.They arrived in France on 21st July 1915.

From the records on this site I see there is a second unit which seems to h

ave the same history,that of 12th Service Battalion of The Kings Royal Rifle Corps.

Can anyone tell me how they differentiate as I am confused?

A couple of years ago I posted a number of runners communications relating to the Bareilly Bde on 25th September 1915,the Fromelles attack close to Loos.I found them inside his paybook.

I'm now wondering which exact unit he belonged to.

I would be grateful for any history of the correct unit post Loos.

Thanks.

Max.

[MBrockway]

... links between the Rifle Brigade and the KRRC (60th Foot) go back to the Light Division in the Peninsular War, when the famous 5/60th was brigaded with the light battalions, the 95th and 43rd. All were skirmishing battalions, most famously under Black Bob Craufurd.

Mike

Mike,

The 5/60th were brigaded with the 2/95th as a Light Brigade in the early stages of the Peninsular Campaign (e.g. at Vimeiro under Fane), but after Corunna the companies of the 5/60th were dispersed as "penny packets" across all the brigades of Wellington's force and only rarely fought together as a battalion. As such the 5/60th were present at the Battle of Talavera while the 43rd, 52nd and 95th - i.e. Crauford's Light Division - arrived the day after, following their famous march.

I don't think the 60th were ever brigaded with the 43rd or 52nd, and they were never in the Light Division under Black Bob Crauford (see Note 33 on p. 247 of Wallace's Brief History ..) though Robert Crauford of course had formerly been an officer in the 60th.

You're completely right though that the 5/60th and 95th shared common roots in de Rottenberg's ideas on using riflemen and skirmishers, use of green jackets, bugle calls, rifles drill, speed marching etc etc

The links between the 60th (later the King's Royal Rifle Corps) and the 95th (later the Rifle Brigade) lie more in their common rifles ancestry and have always been stronger, while the 43rd and 52nd (later the Ox & Bucks LI) were always red jacketed, musket-firing light infantry and didn't re-establish the Peninsular War Light Division connection until they joined the two rifles regiments in the Green Jackets Brigade in 1958.

Cheers,

Mark

[per ardua per mare per terram]

If you watch Sharpe you'll see a depiction of an officer and some men of the 95th in the Napoleonic War. In some episodes he is joined by 'Sweet William' and his men from the 60th Rifles.

[Tim Smith]

"I have my grandfather's paybooks which show he was reg number s/64 and attested into 'a' company 12th (Service) Battalion of Rifle Brigade on 3rd September 1914.They arrived in France on 21st July 1915."

Hello Max, (et al) I have a great uncle, Frederick Charles Dixon who was S/123 in the 12th (Service) Battalion of Rifle Brigade. I've just started to try and trace any history about the unit and Fred in particular. I have general stuff about the 20th (Light) Division and the 60th Brigade, but not that much specific, other than the following:

S/123 Sergeant Frederick Charles Dixon

12th Battalion Rifle Brigade

Born - Streatham, Surrey

Enlisted - Marylebone, Middx.

Residence - Sidcup, Kent

Son of Peter and Elizabeth Dixon, of 112 Wellfield Rd., Streatham, London

Husband of Florence Catherine Dixon, of 25 Wingfield Place, Halfway Street, Sidcup, Kent.

Died of wounds 09/09/1915

Buried BOULOGNE EASTERN CEMETERY - Grave Reference: VIII. B. 77.

(I visited and paid my respects earlier this month)

As your grandfather's and Fred's reg numbers are very close, I'm wondering if they enlisted at a similar time, served in the same unit, or even maybe knew each other?

I would be very interested and grateful for anything you (or anyone else for that matter), may have found about 12th (S) Bn. I tried to PM you, but for some reason the function didn't work.

Many Thanks.

Tim

[stiletto_33853]

Tim,

Your grandfather was wounded in action on the 6/9/15 and died of his wounds on the 9th, his death being reported by the O.C. No.3 General Hospital at Boulogne.

Andy

[MBrockway]

Tim,

Your grandfather was wounded in action on the 6/9/15 and died of his wounds on the 9th, his death being reported by the O.C. No.3 General Hospital at Boulogne.

Andy

Andy,

Interesting that these very low S prefix numbers are both in 12/RB - would we not have expected them in 7/RB? Or even 10/RB?

I assumed they would be used sequentially through the early New Army battalions.

Perhaps they were originally in the lower numbered battalions but were moved part-trained as "seed corn" for the new higher numbered battalions.

Have you seen any obvious pattern?

Cheers,

Mark

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

A lot of the 7th, 8th & 9th RB seem to have been B-Prefix men and a certain amount of Z-Prefix men. A lot of these these early S Prefix men being seperated when due to the influx of recruits the 7th & 8th were hugely oversubscribed by the end of September 1914. By early October 1914 the 7th & 8th RB had reached overwhelming proportions, e.g. "C" Company of the 8th RB had over 500 men on the pay list, so the battalions were split up. I have good accounts of the 8th during this period and some of the 7th but very little on the 9th RB (different Brigade) during training so will rely on the material I have for the 8th.

When the Companies reached such proportions in early October the 7th & 8th were split up with the seperation forming the 10th & 11th RB, i.e. the overspill of the 7th became the 10th RB and similarly the 8th overspill became the 11th Rifle Brigade. There is a lot more to it in the training phase of the 8th but you will find that most of the very early S-Prefix men became the 10th & 11th Rifle Brigade men, as more men were needed in the 8th during their training they were of the S-Prefix (the B & Z Prefix only lasting a few weeks in recruitment before the S was utilised)) hence you will find them of a higher number i.e. S-3000+. It is evident that the 12th Rifle Brigade also had a high proportion of the lower number S Prefix recruits and although I have no proof, I believe that the 9th were also over subscribed and possibly the overspill from the 9th became the 12th RB, but this is only my summary after studying a lot of the RB number sequences and were they went with relation to what was the 8th Division (1st New Army) until more of the regular troops came back home to become the 8th Division with the New Army Division then being renumbered the 14th Division

Hope this helps a little Mark.

Andy

[Canadian Grenadier]

Hi.  I realise that this is a very old post but in the hope that it's still alive I'm writing.  (Not really sure how things work, I joined earlier today so please bear with me.)  My Great Uncle joined 11 RB on 13 Sept 1914 (with previous service in the Army Cyclist Corps of which I know absolutely nothing).  Anyway his Regimental Number in the RB was S24440, (Rifleman 'Jack' Horace John Gillespie).  You seem to know a lot about these Regimental Numbers and I'm hoping you can tell me what his number says about him / his service?  Thanks

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Canadian Grenadier said:

Hi.  I realise that this is a very old post but in the hope that it's still alive I'm writing.  (Not really sure how things work, I joined earlier today so please bear with me.)  My Great Uncle joined 11 RB on 13 Sept 1914 (with previous service in the Army Cyclist Corps of which I know absolutely nothing).  Anyway his Regimental Number in the RB was S24440, (Rifleman 'Jack' Horace John Gillespie).  You seem to know a lot about these Regimental Numbers and I'm hoping you can tell me what his number says about him / his service?  Thanks

 

Better really to start a topic just for your Gt Uncle Jack, maybe the Mods coud split this off for you?

 

Anyway, here are some basics to get you started. 

 

His Medal Index Card (MIC) gives his Disembarkation Date as 21 Jul 1915.  That points to one of the RB battalions in the 20th (Light) Division - 10th, 11th or 12th RB.  [WRONG: he was still with the Army Cyclist Corps when he landed - see next post]

 

Landing in theatre before 1916 meant he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star as well as the British War and Victory medals.

 

He was also issued with a Silver War Badge (SWB), which means he was discharged for some health reason, usually wounds, but I'll look that up shortly if Andy doesn't spot this first.

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2020 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

From his MIC we reach the medal rolls.

 

The 1914-15 Star roll shows he was originally in the Army Cyclists Corps (ACC) with Service Number (SN) of 5245.  He was still with the ACC and a Lance Corporal when he landed in France on 21 Jul 1915, and NOT with any of the three RB bns of 20th (Light) Division, so I was wrong above.  I'll have to check whether there were ACC units attached to 20th Div - none are mentioned in the relevant parts of Inglefield's divisional history, but one finds these divisional troops are often skipped over in summary orders of battle.  ACC men with nearby ACC SNs

 

The Star roll also tells us he was discharged under King's Regulations paragraph 392 (xvi) - i.e. "No longer physically fit for war service" - on 13 Dec 1916.  KR Para 392(xvi) generally means due to wounds or sickness.  He was therefore awarded the Silver War Badge (SWB).  The SWB roll may tell us more.  By this stage he had been transferred to the RB as Rifleman S/24440.  It also states he has since died.  The roll is dated Sep 1919, so he is likely to have died before then.

 

The British War & Victory medals roll confirms the above and also tells us his battalion was 11th RB.

 

11/RB were in 59th Brigade of 20th (Light) Division.  From Aug 1916, they were in the east of The Somme sector.

 

These are their detailed movements according to Westlake's British Battalions on The Somme.

 

The SWB roll states he was discharged due to "Wounds. Para 392(xvi)" on 13 Dec 1916 with SWB badge number 92894.  It also gives his enlistment date as 13 Sep 1914, however be aware these enlistment dates in the SWB are sometimes unreliable.

 

Andy may be able to give a date for Jack's actual wounding.  11/RB were in thick fighting from late summer 1916 and he may have been in the medical chain for some time before discharge.

 

 

More to follow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 April , 2020 by MBrockway

[stiletto_33853]

Wounded in Action on 3/9/16 during the attack on Guillemont. He would have been taken to the A.D.S. at Carnoy. His number is indicative of a far later number in the RB, hence his enlistment date must have been the enlistment date in the Army Cyclist's.

Edited 13 April , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

He has a surviving record, transferred to the RB 27/6/16. Injuries sustained were a GSW to the spine and loss of the top of his right thumb. Discharged as he was paraplegic and underwent operations where the bullet was successfully removed.

 

Andy

Edited 13 April , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[Canadian Grenadier]

Hello and thanks very much.  Jack served with the 11Bn RB and was seriously wounded in the attack on Givenchy, Sept 3rd, 1916.  As you know he was discharged on December 13th, 1916 exactly two years after he enrolled.  A few months later on June 15th, 1917 he succumbed to his wounds and in interred in All Souls Cemetery, London.

 

Your information is most interesting, what is 'The 1914-15 Star Roll' and where may I find it?  (I've other relatives, two in the HLI I'd like to search for - J and W McWhaw).  Why do you say he was with the ACC when he landed in France, because his 1914-15 Star is engraved as such?

 

Thanks ever so much.

[Canadian Grenadier]

Hello again, and thanks again.  When you say that he has a surviving record, what do you mean?

[stiletto_33853]

Not Givenchy but Guillemont where the whole 20th Division were involved in the attack.

His Army record you can find on Ancestry where the attached comes from.

 

Andy

Edited 13 April , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[MBrockway]

You're very lucky - there is a Pension Record for your Great Uncle.

 

A more complicated picture emerges!

 

13 Sep 1914 - enlisted aged 21yrs 9m at Lambeth into the King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) as Rifleman R/4911

[Born in Battersea.  Trade: Carpenter, apprenticeship with Projectile Co., London, time expired Jan 1914]

[Mother now living in Coventry]

[His medical description on enlistment mentions he had had the top part of his right thumb amputated - a common injury for woodworkers]

16 Sep 1914 - reported to the Rifle Depot at Winchester (shared by the KRRC and RB)

15 Oct 1914 - posted to 11/KRRC (also in 59 Bde, 20th (Light) Division)

 

05 Jan 1915 - transferred to 20th Division cyclist company of the Army Cyclist Corps (ACC) with SN 5245.

[This unit would have been unbrigaded 20th Div divisional troops under the direct control of the Div GOC.]

10 Jun 1915 - awarded 7 days Field Punishment No. 2 [unsure of reason, but likely to be AWOL offence]

17 Jun 1915 - returns to duty

03 Jul 1915 - appointed Lance Corporal (unpaid) [despite his recent disciplinary offence]

21 Jul 1915 - appointed Lance Corporal (paid)

21 Jul 1915 - embarked for France & Flanders as part of 20th (Light) Division, but still with 20th divisional cyclist company, ACC,

[thus having his 1914-15 Star medal inscribed to the ACC]

 

21 Jun 1916 - deprived of Lance stripe for absence

27 Jul 1916 - transferred to 11/RB (in 59 Bde, 20th (Light) Division) as Rifleman S/24440

03 Sep 1916 - wounded in action in the attack at GUILLEMONT (thanks Andy!): Gunshot wound (GSW) to spine.  Loss of top of right thumb.

['GSW' can include wounds from artillery and shrapnel as well as bullets.  Also it looks like the thumb injury was pre-existing - see above]

10 Sep 1916 - invalided to England & put strength of Rifle Depot

10 Sep 1916 - admitted to St George's Hospital, Hyde Park Corner, London SW [this has now been redeveloped as residential property]

22 Nov 1916 - Medical Board

M.O.'s summary:

"Paraplegia, GWS Spine.

In Action 3.9.16. Somme.  Operation for removal of bullet from spine was successfully performed, but spinal chord found to be completely severed.  Complete paralysis below lower dorsal regions: Confined to bed.  (Disability) Permanent. Prevents (return to normal life) totally"

06 Dec 1916 - granted a Pension for 6 months

13 Dec 1916 - discharged 'No longer physically fit for War Service' [i.e. KR Para 392(xvi)]

Officer's comments: "Invalided & permanently disabled (totally incapacitated at present) through GSW spine due to active service"

 

26 Apr 1917 - still at St George's Hospital

04 May 1917 - further Medical Board: "Total incapacity"

15 Jun 1917 - died of wounds

 

As he was discharged from the Rifle Brigade, his British War medal and his Victory medal will both be inscribed to the Rifle Brigade.

 

Buried Kensal Green (All Souls') Cemetery and commemorated on the screen wall there.  Aged 24yrs. Son of Alice Ingledew (formerly Gillespie), of 23, Mill St., Coventry, and the late Alexander Gillespie. Born in London. [CWGC List of the Fallen]

 

Total Service     2yrs 93 days

Home                311 days              13 Sep 1914 to 20 Jul 1915

BEF France      1yr 53 days          21 Jul 1915 to 09 Sep 1916

Home                95 days                10 Sep 1916 to 13 Dec 1916

 

 

Very sad to read - we will remember this brave Rifleman, who served in both rifle regiments.

 

Mark

 

Edited 13 April , 2020 by MBrockway
minor additions

[MBrockway]

Andy  beat me to it

 

Definitely GUILLEMONT 03 Sep 1916 - a very major battle for the 20th (Light) Division and about which Andy and I have posted large quantities of material here on the forum

[squirrel]

From Post 23 - "St George's Hospital, Hyde Park Corner, London SW [this has now been redeveloped as residential property]"

The hospital was redeveloped 1988 to 1991 and is now The Lanesborough Hotel, taking the original building's name.