Completing Polytechnic/University of Westminster Roll

[Anthony Gorst]

Hi all

Could any one throw some light on the names below. I am trying to construct a roll from the names on the Poytechnic (now the University of Westminster) memorial. I've got around 375 out of the nearly 400 names locked down through the usual routes (CWGC plus some internal Poly sources) but have run into a brick wall on the remainder, with no listing on CWGC or SDGW: some of them will probably remain unidentified (Smith, J) so I will only list those names for which I have some additiional information (derived from the Poly manuscript roll of honour for all those who served and contemporary Poly mags).

2nd Lt Horace (Harry) Bright of the Middlesex Regiment died 4th May 1917

Rifleman F T Dew 2701 of 12th London died 24th August 1918

Rifleman W A Durand 2944 of 12th London died 12th June 1918 (Poly mag has him as 'kiled accidentally in service)

Rifleman Gerald Houlihan 1454 of 12th London died Aril 1917 buried Kensal Rise Catholic Cemertary in London (Poly mag refers to his twin brother Jack Gratton who is listed on the CWGC as Rifleman John Gratton Houlihan of 12th London)

Lt F A Nagler uni it unknown (Polymag has him as 'died on leave' in 1918 other info suggests he was 37 in August 1914 and there is a Frederick A agd 23 in the 1901 Census)

2nd Lt A H S Tulse of 2nd North??? Fusiliers died April 1915

The number of Rangers above (and on the roll as a whole 140 or so out of 400) is explained by the fact that the Poly raised a company (I thik A company for the Rangers pre war and encouraged men from the Poly to enlist in the Rangers after the outbreak of war.

Any info gratefully received. Also any reason why these names would not be on the CWGC

The aim (eventually maybe by Xmas) is to put up a roll on the University website.

I know it is a big ask but if anyone can help I would be grateful and am more than happy to do lookups on the roll (particularly for Rangers)

[SteveE]

Rifleman F T Dew 2701 of 12th London died 24th August 1918

Commissioned into Durham Light Infantry 28/02/1917......

Name: DEW, FREDERICK THOMAS

Initials: F T

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Durham Light Infantry

Unit Text: "A" Coy. 10th Bn.

Age: 23

Date of Death: 24/08/1917

Additional information: Son of Frederick Benjamin and Gertrude Dew, of 94, Mayfield Rd., Sanderstead, Surrey.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 128 to 131 and 162 and 162A.

Memorial: TYNE COT MEMORIAL

His MIC....

[SteveE]

Rifleman Gerald Houlihan 1454 of 12th London died Aril 1917 buried Kensal Rise Catholic Cemertary in London (Poly mag refers to his twin brother Jack Gratton who is listed on the CWGC as Rifleman John Gratton Houlihan of 12th London)

Discharged from Army 30th October 1915, so death after discharge. Cause of death may be attributable to military service, you'll need death certificate to see what it says and whether he meets the criteria set down by CWGC.

His MIC....

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

Second Lieutenant ,Arthur Harold Seymour Tuke, 3/Northumberland Fusiliers att 2/Northumberland Fusiliers KiA 7/5/1915.

Commemorated on Ypres Menin Gate Memorial

regards

John

[Peter Doyle]

Good luck with this Anthony - I used to work at the University of Greenwich (Woolwich Poly), the second poly to be formed by Quintin Hogg. I carried out the same task for Greenwich, and also got a new memorial raised (now at the Dreadnought Library, part of the Naval College site in Greenwich), as well as an on-line version (which, I think, s currently off-line, but old versions can be found by Google searching Doomed Youth, Woolwich Poly).

One interest of mine is that both your war memorial, and Greenwich's, carries the same lines. Here is an extract from the blurb I had at the beginning of the on-line document:

'After the war, the Polytechnic remembered those who served by the erection of two memorial plaques: a ‘Roll of Honour’ of those who were killed; and a ‘Roll of Service’ of those who served, but who had not been killed9. Both memorials were sited in the main corridor of the Polytechnic and unveiled on Monday 30th May 1921 at 8 o’clock. The Roll of Honour Memorial Plaque listed without rank or distinction the 54 staff, students and members of the Polytechnic who had lost their lives in the war. Funds for the erection of the memorial were raised through appeals to the staff, students and members. The memorial cost an estimated £42, and was both designed and manufactured by J. Wippell & Co. of Duncannon Street, Charing Cross, London WC210. It had a simple heading: ‘To the memory of the Staff, Students and Members of the Woolwich Polytechnic Institute who gave their lives in the Great War, 1914-1918’. A short verse lay at the bottom of the plaque:

True love by life—True love by death—is tried.

Live then for England: We for England died.

This verse is identical to that used on the Regent Street Polytechnic Roll of Honour, still in place in the entrance foyer to the University of Westminster. This underlines the strong links between ‘parent’ and ‘daughter’ institutions, both linked through the teaching of Quintin Hogg.'

I wonder if you can shed any light on this?

Good luck

Peter

[Anthony Gorst]

Commissioned into Durham Light Infantry 28/02/1917......

many thanks for this: I suspected it might be him but being relatively new to all this hadn't thought about the MIC which locks him down as a ranger. It's not unusual (to coin a phrase) for the Poly to get the dates of death wrong but not usually by a whole year. Again thanks for your help, sadly those is no further info on Dew in the Poly material but if I come across anything and you are interested I will forward on. e have two other DLI on the memorial, a Lt John Blair and a Private john Stanly Nash

[Anthony Gorst]

Discharged from Army 30th October 1915, so death after discharge. Cause of death may be attributable to military service, you'll need death certificate to see what it says and whether he meets the criteria set down by CWGC.

His MIC....

Again, many thanks, there appearss to have been a third brother D.C Houlihan who served. If you are interetsed I will root out the Poly mags for Houlihan

[Lorac]

Gerald Patrick Houlihan - his pension records are also on Ancestry, 18 pages all told (although some may be duplicated).

Briefly, he enlisted into the 18th (Kensington) Battalion, The London Reg on 16/5/1911.

Regards

Lorac

[Lorac]

A page from his pension file from Ancestry which may be of interest.

Lorac

PS: I can download all pages if you wish me to email them to you.

[Anthony Gorst]

Good luck with this Anthony - I used to work at the University of Greenwich (Woolwich Poly), the second poly to be formed by Quintin Hogg. I carried out the same task for Greenwich, and also got a new memorial raised (now at the Dreadnought Library, part of the Naval College site in Greenwich), as well as an on-line version (which, I think, s currently off-line, but old versions can be found by Google searching Doomed Youth, Woolwich Poly).

One interest of mine is that both your war memorial, and Greenwich's, carries the same lines......[snip]

A short verse lay at the bottom of the plaque:

True love by life—True love by death—is tried.

Live then for England: We for England died.

This verse is identical to that used on the Regent Street Polytechnic Roll of Honour, still in place in the entrance foyer to the University of Westminster. This underlines the strong links between 'parent' and 'daughter' institutions, both linked through the teaching of Quintin Hogg.'

I wonder if you can shed any light on this?

Good luck

Peter

Peter

Thanks for this - I have seen your excellent roll which in a sense gave me the idea of doing something on similiar lines at Westminster. Unlike the Woolwich memorial, the Poly memorial in 309 Regent street survived although it was moved from it's original position on the south side of the foyer where it was erected in 1920 to a more prominent position on the west side in 1955, opposite a Second World memorial which was erected in 1951. Sadly both are now somewhat obscured by reception desks.

The Great War memorial is slightly different to the Woolwich one as it lists by rank (unlike our WW2 memorial). The lines are i think by A C Ainger but where from I don't know, I've also seen them on a couple of other memorials but can't remember where off the top of my head. Might be worth asking the good folk on the forum. I'll keep my eye out for stuff on Woolwich Poly in the University of Westminster archives but my gut feeling is thaat following the death of Hogg in 1903, thee two institutions drift apaprt somewhat.

Oh and just remembered - there are two other memorials for the Poly, one is an inscription added to the statue of Hogg that used to stand outside the Poly but that was later moved (aanyone any idea when or why) to Portland Place. The other, at the Poly Sports Ground in Chiswick, was to members of the Rowing Club a plaque listing the dead above the door of a building that housed a rowing tank purchased out of funds raised: sadly I think this is long gone, possibly due to enemy action in World War Two.

[Anthony Gorst]

A page from his pension file from Ancestry which may be of interest.

Lorac

PS: I can download all pages if you wish me to email them to you.

That would be great if its not too much trouble - do you need my personal email to send attachments?

[Anthony Gorst]

Hi

Second Lieutenant ,Arthur Harold Seymour Tuke, 3/Northumberland Fusiliers att 2/Northumberland Fusiliers KiA 7/5/1915.

Commemorated on Ypres Menin Gate Memorial

regards

John

Many thanks John - another misprint (or miscarving on the memorial) - to go alongside maplethorpe (really Mapplethorpe), Matthews (for mathews) plus several stes of initials reversed. Any idea how common this is?

[Lorac]

No trouble at all and yes, your email addy please. You can PM me with it if you prefer to keep it private from the forum.

Regards

Lorac

[Anthony Gorst]

No trouble at all and yes, your email addy please. You can PM me with it if you prefer to keep it private from the forum.

Regards

Lorac

Not sure what the etiquette was - I'll PM.

[Guest rogerhine]

Oh and just remembered - there are two other memorials for the Poly, one is an inscription added to the statue of Hogg that used to stand outside the Poly but that was later moved (aanyone any idea when or why) to Portland Place. The other, at the Poly Sports Ground in Chiswick, was to members of the Rowing Club a plaque listing the dead above the door of a building that housed a rowing tank purchased out of funds raised: sadly I think this is long gone, possibly due to enemy action in World War Two.

I came across this forum quite by accident, whilst looking for information on the rowing tank at the Poly Sports Ground. I am a member of Quintin Boat Club and thought you might like to know that when I joined the club in 1974 the wooden building housing the rowing tank was still standing. However, not much later (1975 or 1976 I think) it was severely damaged by a storm and had to be demolished. The Polytechnic of Central London, as it then was, arranged for its rebuilding as a brick and concrete structure but still housing the original rowing tank and this was in use until the early 2000s when it was placed out of bounds as a safety hazard by the University of Westminster. Last year Quintin Boat Club arranged for the tank to be boarded over to create a spacious gymnasium which is now being put to good use. So much for the tank itself. The memorial plaque to which you refer was, when I joined the club, in the clubroom mounted on the chimney breast above the fireplace, and it is there to this day. The club places a fresh wreath of poppies below it every Remembrance Day. I have placed a photograph of it on our website if you would like to take a look at http://quintinboatclub.org/photogallery/early/pic_12.html

Roger Hine

Membership Secretary and Webmaster

Quintin Boat Club

[Anthony Gorst]

Roger

Many many thanks for this.

Firstly, good to know the memorial survives: shows the power of urban myth which has it that it was long gone. Secondly, even better to know that they continue to be remembered by their succesors. Thirdly I didn't know that world war two names had been added.

It would be good to meet and have a chat about both the First World War chaps and the Second world war chaps: lots of stories about Hoare, Cohen, Tull, Lindley & Wylie, they were quite something. You can get me via the University of Westminster at Adot(replace with.)Gorst@wmin.ac.uk or via the phone switchboard. I'll pm you as well.

I came across this forum quite by accident, whilst looking for information on the rowing tank at the Poly Sports Ground. I am a member of Quintin Boat Club and thought you might like to know that when I joined the club in 1974 the wooden building housing the rowing tank was still standing. However, not much later (1975 or 1976 I think) it was severely damaged by a storm and had to be demolished. The Polytechnic of Central London, as it then was, arranged for its rebuilding as a brick and concrete structure but still housing the original rowing tank and this was in use until the early 2000s when it was placed out of bounds as a safety hazard by the University of Westminster. Last year Quintin Boat Club arranged for the tank to be boarded over to create a spacious gymnasium which is now being put to good use. So much for the tank itself. The memorial plaque to which you refer was, when I joined the club, in the clubroom mounted on the chimney breast above the fireplace, and it is there to this day. The club places a fresh wreath of poppies below it every Remembrance Day. I have placed a photograph of it on our website if you would like to take a look at http://quintinboatclub.org/photogallery/early/pic_12.html

Roger Hine

Membership Secretary and Webmaster

Quintin Boat Club