Vehicle sign

[stripeyman]

This sign was on a motor lorry in 1918, can anyone tell me what unit it was ?

Thank you

Bob Grundy

[Pete1052]

I could be wrong but I'd say it's some sort of maintenance unit, quite possibly an ordnance maintenance company or battalion. It could also be a maintenance section within some other kind of unit, such as a tank or quartermaster transport unit. I don't see any numbers or letters on the sign denoting a unit designation.

[stripeyman]

Looking at this again, could the other one from the spanner be a ladle up side down ???????

Bob

[Peter Doyle]

Looks to me to be a spanner and oil can, and therefore I'd hazard a guess that it would belong to the ASC, but i'ts only a guess...

Peter

[michaeldr]

I wonder if it could be

"Blue spanner crossed with glass retort (red liquid in bottom) on a black background"

given by Col Michael Young as the company sign for ASC Company 718

[the oil can/retort does seem to have something in it]

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

If so, 718 was the

2 Water Tank (MT) Company

served Western Front, Second Army

formed 20 June 1916

disbanded 10 December 1919

file at NA; WO95 353

Does any of this fit?

[Peter Doyle]

Sounds good to me!

Peter

[daggers]

If that retort has liquid in it, it must be upside down and about to spill !

Daggers

[michaeldr]

or is the sign upside down?

[Great War Truck]

It might be of assistance if you could tell us what kind of lorry it was?

Thanks

Tim (too)

[michaeldr]

Tim,

until Bob gets back with info re the truck in his photograph

this is what Young has to say regarding ASC Co. 718 (and ASC Co. 646), indicating that Garfords were used as Water Tankers

Quote from 'Army Service Corps 1912-1918' [iSBN 085052 730 9] pages 88/9

"The provision of water has never been a strong card in the army's hand, but this war saw a major turning point away from horse-dawn water-carts with the introduction in 1916 of bulk water tankers. The first water tank company, 646 Company ASC, was formed on 27 January 1916, with the second 718 Company ASC, formed on 20 June 1916 with the 1st and 2nd Armies, both at Grove Park in south east London for use on the Western Front. They were followed by No.s 3 and 4 Water Tank Companies in September and October 1917 for the 3rd Army and the Line of Communication respectively.

The companies were issued with twenty-four 1 ton Garfords, each carrying 150 gallons of water, and three lorries, which carried 500 gallons each. RAMC chemists were attached to operate the sterilizers and de-poisoners and later to analyse water in surrendered territory. By the end of August 1916 extra vehicles were issued to 646 and 718 Companies, bringing their total to 111 Garfords and thirty 3 tonners. Frequently the vehicles drove up to just behind the front lines in order to refill the tins used for conveying water to the troops in the trenches, complementing the normal service provided routinely by smaller horse-drawn water carts.

In the extreme frosts of February 1917 the whole of the water pipeline laid by the Royal Engineers froze up, which meant that these two water tank companies were the only means of supplying water to Casualty Clearing Stations, prisoner-of-war camps, Heavy Battery positions and other units located so far from other water supplies that it was impossible to do with horse-drawn carts.

The flexibility and value of the road tankers were illustrated during the attack on Messines Ridge in June 1917. All the water pipe lines laid by the Sappers were damaged by shellfire and the water tankers had to make return trips over several miles to satisfy needs. Even so the situation was critical, as four of the first five vehicles on the Ridge had their water tanks pierced by shrapnel."

Regards

Michael

ps: Col Young's book also has a photograph dating from July 1918

"RAMC personnel of No. 2 Water Tank Company ASC [718 (MT) Company] testing water at the roadside in France"

Unfortunately it does not include the vehicle sign concentrating instead on the water testing; see b & w photographs between pages150 and 151. The photograph is credited to the RCT Archives

[Great War Truck]

That is most interesting. Thanks you. So, if the truck is a Garford we know which Company it probably belongs to. It is a pity that the make of the "3 tonners" is not disclosed.

I wait for the identification of the lorry with baited breath (well, i do get quite excited about these things).

Tim (too)

[stripeyman]

I deliberatly did not show the full photograph to see what the response was.................

I will post the actual photo when 'Ashton Pete' scans and forwardeds it to me.

You are all a very clever bunch of pals, if you need info, the GWF is THE place!

Bob Grundy

[stripeyman]

As you can all see it is a vehicle of a Water Tank Company, photo taken 7 June 1918.

Perhaps Tim can ID the actual wagon, or should I say 'truck' now.........

The two chaps on the left appear to be Americans and the man with his back to the camera

has a red cross on his left arm.

It is very much appreciated that you all have supplied the info, it will go

into the 'Camera Returns' feature in Stand To! later this year.

Bob Grundy

[Minesweeper]

Not a lot to go on - but could it be a Locomobile?

[Great War Truck]

Not a lot to go on - but could it be a Locomobile?

It certainly is a Locomobile. I have some more info on this which i will post later on (i have to go out - just when things got interesting too).

Tim

[Rolfi]

As has been said this is the sign of 718 ASC Company/ No.2 Water Tank Coy. The retort and spanner represent the analytical and engineering skills of the unit’s members.

[Great War Truck]

The correct designation of this vehicle is " Chlorine gas sterilising plant, Motor Lorry". Here is picture of a similar truck taken from the side:

The truck was made by Locomobile (Bridgeport Conneticut USA) but not wanting to have their name associated with anything other than the manufacture of luxury cars, the truck was named a "Riker" after its designer.

The purpose of this specialist body was (as the name implies) to take up contaminated water and remove any trace of chlorine gas, before pumping out the clean water. There is an engine and pump at the back of the body to do this. Behind the cab is a small "laboratory" area to test the level of chlorine in the water. It does all look to be very "Heath Robinson".

I have seen a similar picture of this machine in action, but cant find it at the moment. Does anybody else have one?

Tim

[Great War Truck]

ps: Col Young's book also has a photograph dating from July 1918

"RAMC personnel of No. 2 Water Tank Company ASC [718 (MT) Company] testing water at the roadside in France"

Unfortunately it does not include the vehicle sign concentrating instead on the water testing; see b & w photographs between pages150 and 151. The photograph is credited to the RCT Archives

Oh yes, thats it. Same lorry, same location.

It interesting to see that the front end of the lorry is covered and the cab is sheeted over. You would expect to see this if the lorry was parked up overnight in cold or wet weather, but the Doughboys are not wearing their jackets (scruffy fellows) so you would not think that it was either wet or cold. Thoughts anybody?

Tim

[michaeldr]

quote: Oh yes, thats it. Same lorry, same location.

Indeed it is; same officer and same truck - see the number

same canvas tank, same hose, etc etc

The full caption in Michael Young's book is

"RAMC personnel of No.2 Water Tank Company ASC (718 (MT) Company testing

water at the roadside in France, July 1918"

Thanks for your pic Bob

[michaeldr]

quote: It interesting to see that the front end of the lorry is covered and the cab is sheeted over. You would expect to see this if the lorry was parked up overnight in cold or wet weather, but the Doughboys are not wearing their jackets (scruffy fellows) so you would not think that it was either wet or cold. Thoughts anybody?

Tim,

It may well have been parked overnight and still covered like this the next morning when they commenced the testing which we see in the photograph. I may be wrong, but I don't suppose that RAMC officers too 'spit and polish' and they may not have insisted that the truck be uncovered very first thing.

One other thought occurs to me (though this may be a bit too far out)

You mentioned earlier that "Behind the cab is a small "laboratory" area to test the level of chlorine in the water. It does all look to be very "Heath Robinson"." Looking at the photograph then the lab must indeed have been very small. Is it possible that the back of the cab folded down to increase the space available for this lab, and the cab front was then curtained when this was done?

regards

Michael

[Great War Truck]

quote:

It may well have been parked overnight and still covered like this the next morning when they commenced the testing which we see in the photograph. I may be wrong, but I don't suppose that RAMC officers too 'spit and polish' and they may not have insisted that the truck be uncovered very first thing.

One other thought occurs to me (though this may be a bit too far out)

You mentioned earlier that "Behind the cab is a small "laboratory" area to test the level of chlorine in the water. It does all look to be very "Heath Robinson"." Looking at the photograph then the lab must indeed have been very small. Is it possible that the back of the cab folded down to increase the space available for this lab, and the cab front was then curtained when this was done?

regards

Michael

Good point. It is probably still covered over from the night before. The equipment is powered by a seperate engine at the back so there would be no need to uncover it unless they were moving off.

There was a plan of the body in the latest Windscreen magazine which shows the lab as being about the width of an outside toilet. The back of the cab appears to be made of wood and i dont think they would need much room. Just enough for someone to stand up in and test the water quality. Just visible in the second photo is a sink which i presume allowed the tester to dispose of his tested matter straight on to the ground and also allow him to wash his hands. You can make out a tall cabinet to the right of the sink. Not enough room to swing a cat. Reminds me of my first flat.

Tim (too)

[RobL]

There's puddles on the ground next to the lorry in question - unless it's from water used by the lorry's apparatus, could be from rain? It's in the shade of the lorry, so could have been raining (overnight or earlier in the day), and it's suddenly become nice and warm

[eirridia]

The correct designation of this vehicle is " Chlorine gas sterilising plant, Motor Lorry".

The purpose of this specialist body was (as the name implies) to take up contaminated water and remove any trace of chlorine gas, before pumping out the clean water. There is an engine and pump at the back of the body to do this. Behind the cab is a small "laboratory" area to test the level of chlorine in the water.

Resurrecting an old post, sorry.

Just wanted to clarify that chlorine gas was actually used to 'sterilise' the water. (It doesn't actually 'sterilise', but that's a different subject). Chlorine compounds, including chlorine gas, are still used today to treat drinking water.

I suspect that their tests were probably to determine the level of chlorine in the water, but only to ensure that there was enough in the water to ensure that bacteria were killed off.

I guess there must also have been tests for mustard gas, which I understand could remain in soil for a long time.

(G.Uncle - 2/Lt. Samuel Christian Hulme, No.2 Water Tank Company ASC (718 MT Coy))

[Terry_Reeves]

Interestingly enough, the Royal Engineers had laboratory barges for water testing on the Inland Waterways on the Western Front, the laboratory staff being provided by the RAMC. These tests were for more than the chlorine content of the water bowsers which erridia has correctly identified though.

TR