Movements

[RFC01]

Hi for the original thread, look here:

Go

As you will see Les advised me to start a thread in here.

Any help on that text or unit info would be fantastic.

Just as an additional question. What would an airman 3rd class, or 3rd class airman (is there a difference?) what would he have likely flown, if he did fly. I take it would have. Balloons or airplanes?

Cheers

[Starlight]

Air mechanic 3rd class John Chamberlain was killed in action on 30th November 1917, whilst serving with Number 17 Balloon Company (itself part of II Brigade RFC which was set up in February 1916 to support the 2nd Army - with many aircraft squadrons allocated to the 2nd Corps wing and the 11th Army wing). Lijssenhoek was a huge cemetery, close to many field hospitals but also not far from many of the RFC bases (Abeele, Droglandt and Poperinghe to name but three). I can't find where Number 17 Balloon Company was based at that time but it would have been close to Ypres. He may have been killed whilst in a balloon or on the ground - I'll keep looking.

Regards

Steve

[Starlight]

A little extra info from the website listed below

http://westernfrontassociation.com/thegrea...ch/balloons.htm

"The anticipated 'life' of an observation balloon in an active sector of the Western Front was about two weeks. By 1918, due to the activities of the air aces called 'balloon-busters' the 'life' of a balloon could be as little as half a day. These aces called the men who manned the balloons, 'balloonatics'. The strength of a British Field Balloon Company was usually 5 or 6 officers (four of whom served as observers in addition to their regimental duties on the ground) and between 150 and 200 other ranks. Each balloon had 48 men to handle it. These men required a high level of training, strict co-ordination and a high level of discipline, since the balloon on the ground could be an exceedingly dangerous object if not kept under full control at all times. Other responsibilities included moving the balloon between operational sites and guarding it. Each Balloon Section was expected to be militarily self-sufficient in its routine daily duties."

I would suggest that Baloon Companies would have to be very mobile - see above - so Number 17 could have been anywhere close to the lines on the western side of Ypres.

Regards

Steve

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Have you looked in AIR 79/977 (service numbers 108801 - 109000) to see if the RAF had any records for him?

[RFC01]

Steve,

Thanks very much. Thats some interesting info.

I notice you say he held the rank of Air Mechanic 3rd Class. The CWGC has him as Airman 3rd Class. Are they basically the same rank?

He was originally in the Royal Scots Fusiliers and transfered to the RFC via the Royal Engineers, so im presuming it would be more likely he was part of the 48 men who made up the ground crew??..........He would have had good discipline and team skills being from the Royal Scots, or would that be presuming too much??? Is he just as likely to have been up in the balloon??

Right in the thick of it aswell there in Ypres.

I guess i was secretly hoping hed flown airplanes, but in actual fact the ballooning thing kind of fits in with another of my family who was on the R34 as a wireless operator. He nearly ended up on the R101 some 20 years after 1917. So theres a nice connection there:)

Gotta say this forum is a treasure trove of info. Ill keep my fingers crossed for any further info on this.

Cheers

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There is a good section on kite balloons in Cooksley, Peter G. RFC/RNAS Handbook 1914-1918 (ISBN: 0750921692). Another recommended book is Alan Morris, The Balloonatics , (Jarrold & sons. London, 1970). There are several threads on this forum about them too. Air Mechanic 3rd Class and Airman 3rd Class were the same, the RFC/RAF & RNAS took a whle to settle on the titles. It is safe to assume that being in the army installed some discipline into him.

Your relative on the R34 worked with Barnes Wallis (later to design the Wellington bomber, the Dam Buster bomb etc), if he worked on the R100 he kept with the successful team; if it was the R101 he had a lucky escape. Have you read Nevil Shute's Slide Rule? Here's a decription of the book from a seller on abebooks.co.uk "Covering his early years when as a schoolboy he witnessed the Easter Rising in Dublin, his work as an engineer on early aeroplanes, the work on the R100 airship and the trip to Canada. He then founded the Airspeed company designing and manufacturing aeroplanes of which the most famous was probably the Oxford on which many bomber command pilots were trained in WWII and the company's eventual merger with de Havillland." It also describes the design of R101.

[RFC01]

Where do i find AIR 79/977, as i have not looked there yet?

Thanks for clearing the clarity of rank issue. I need to find out about his time in the Royal Scots next i guess and possible transfer date, see how long hed been working these balloons. He was 37 when he died. Sounds to me he hadnt just joined up. Ill look into getting a hold on these books you mention as i have not seen either. The only book i have is Airship Saga by Lord Ventry and Eugene M Kolesnik. It is more airships though still quiet interesting.

John would have been my great Uncle.

Are there any maps of Ypres around 1917 i can get me hands on?

Anyway the guy on the R34 is my grandad. He is interesting in himself. He joined up after the war in 1918 as a boy apprentice in the first class of wireless operators. He had 40 years service, having seen through WWII. He wrote his memoirs before he died, and left a load of pictures. All too much to go into now.

On the R34 he was only there for a short time:) He was wireless operator when the R34 was at Pelham testing the mooring tower there?? The R34 was used as a test airship for that mooring tower and at that time the British were trying to export the idea of uk built airships to other countries. I have some video of the R34 (from the net somewhere) of two airplanes being released from underneath the airship. Some famous daredevil parachute guy was going to jump out but didnt. Its written about somewhere else as well ina newspaper or something, but during all that was when he served on the R34 about 6-months or so i think. I know the cab from the r34 is in the museum at Hendon.

He was asked if he would like to serve on the R101 at the end of his stint on the R34. He thought about it a while and after some long hard thought decided it just wasnt for him....good decision grandad;) . When you read his comments in context in his memoirs, i got the impression that he was joking about having to think long and hard, that he really didnt enjoy airships too much. I could be wrong.

I cant remember him mentioning hed worked with Barnes Wallace. Although he does mention him im sure. He mentions a bunch of other interesting characters. Some guy called Dunnett (sp?) kindly wrote a forward, as he knew my grandfather. Some other famous guy right before his last flight.

Ive never read Nevil Shute's Slide Rule no. Seems interesting. I'll look that up.

As an aside and possibly of some humour to some i dont know. In my grandfathers memoirs and with an accompanied clipping from a newspaper, with his handwriting and signed by his hand are the words, 'I saved this tree 1935'. Hes talking about the famous Cody tree of course. Another myth about the tree, i hear there are many myths? i have no idea if its even possibly true. He certainly got about and was stationed at Farnborough at that time.

He served in Iraq twice, once in the early 1921-23 on gunboat called The Gadfly, a Cricket class river gunboat aquired by the RAF in 1921 from the Navy, although i think Navel sources record it as scrapped. He was in Iraq again later on 38-41 with 84 squadron, Shaibah.

When at farnborough in May of 1935 he was working on Queen Bees, top secret at the time. I have some Queen Bee operational instructions. He worked in Malta on the seabourne versions of the Queen Bees during the famous bombing of Malta. He says in a year he went through around 1700 air raids. He was on the convoy on 'the manxman' malta to gibralter on his way back to the UK. Ah......... there's enough to write a book on really as he had varying roles during his stint.

My dad tried to get it published, but when he approached RAF for publishing they asked him to front half the cost. My dad was in publishing for 20 years more, (after being RAF himself), so he knew the publishing trade. He wrote back basically telling them that they were taking the piss and that there practice was vanity publishing at its worst. He culled reports from his companies files on the firm who dealt with RAF publishing etc, gave em what for i think..lol. So it never got published.

But hey thats all another story:D

Can we get back to this John Chamberlain and Number 17 Balloon Company??? Where were Number 17 Balloon company around his death.

Cheers

[per ardua per mare per terram]

AIR 79 is at Kew and is an original document held at Kew. You can request a copy of the service number you want from their shop online facility.

I can't find any references to 17 balloon company in the Kew catalogue, here is the only reference for a file at Kew I located that might have something.

AIR 1/980/204/5/1149 Routine orders: 2 Brigade R.F.C. 1917 Oct. - Dec.

John Chamberlain died just after 3rd Ypres (see the Long long Trail) so there are plenty of maps for Ypres in 1917!

It looks like you've been given short shrift from the RAF have you tried other publishers? As far as I know John Swinfield hasn't published his MA dissertation yet The Sky Sailors: The Role of the Armed Services in the Development of the Airship from 1900 - 1930 see previous thread

Per Ardua

[per ardua per mare per terram]

From what I have seen, the record in AIR 79 for an airman who died before the formation of the RAF is sometimes his attestation form, which will answer your questions on when Chamberlain signed up and may even give indications of his service overseas.

[RFC01]

Ok ive sent an enquiry to the NA for service records and that Routine orders doc for the 2nd Brigade. See what comes up.

I wonder if Steve has found out anymore.?

Cheers all for helping me out on this:)

[Starlight]

If you don't have access to real copies of the old maps, a very good internet site for samples of WW1 trench maps is the following:

http://www.pathsofglory.co.uk/Trenchmap%20extracts.htm

It covers the whole of the Western Front but if you look at them carefully (using the alphabetic gridding system overlaid on each section) you can easily identify those for the Ypres area and put them together.

Re the movements of the various balloon companies throughout the war I have yet to find anything concrete - but there would be experts out there who can help if they read this thread. Bear in mind that the siting of balloons would have been far more fluid than say the RFC squadron aerodromes as they had to be moved often and quickly or else they were destroyed. By their very 'raison d'etre' the balloons had to be visible on both sides of the lines and their positions would be very vulnerable to both ground and air attack.

Peter Cooksley's "The RFC/RNAS Handbook" has a very interesting chapter on Balloons, including a breakdown of the various roles the ground crew played (John Chamberlain would almost certainly been one of those). Of the 96 personnel in one Kite Balloon Section (KBS) - and there were normally two KBS for each Balloon Company - the roles were:

1 flight sergeant

2 sergeants

45 balloon handlers with 3 corporals

2 balloon riggers and a corporal

1 clerk

2 cooks

14 drivers

3 motorcyclists

6 telephonists and a corporal

2 storeman

1 wireless operator

4 winchmen

4 batmen

5 officers (to do the actual ballooning)

I agree with 'per ardua . . ' - Slide Rule is definately worth a read re the development of airships. An old paperback copy of Neville Shute's book would be quite cheap if you look for one using one of the search engines like Abebooks, Campusi et al.

Regards

Steve

[Adrian Roberts]

RFC01

Your grandad's memoirs sound interesting; were they actually published or are they only family document?

The airship control car in the RAF Museum is from R33, the sister-ship of R34. (In the attached photo you can just make out the number on the side). It was R33 that was used for the trials of dropping what were known as "parasite fighters" (Gloster Grebes I think). R34 was most famous for crossing the Atlantic, and being the first aircraft to cross from East to West.

R33 was scrapped in 1928, hence the car being preserved. R34 was broken up after a crash in 1921 - fortunately it didn't catch fire and the crew survived.

Adrian

[RFC01]

Steve,

Thanks for that info and the link, again most informative. All that crew, wow. How many balloons in a company? 1, 2, 3? I will have a look for that book. I've learnt alot about balloons in WW1 through this. i knew they existed of course, but having read some and from info youve all given, i find balloons had a big influence on the kind of war it turned out to be, trench style warfare. Also reading that alot of people drafted into the RFC from army usually did so with the aim of getting away from the trenches and that this happened alot after late 1917. Who could have blamed them? At the age of 37 my impression is he served his time in the trenches in the RSF and because of that he got a chance to get out the trenches when the RFC was kitting out these Balloon companies. Hopefully the docs from the NA will be able to tell me more. Plus that AIR 1 document on 2nd batallion Routine orders that Per Ardua pointed me towards.

Adrian,

My grandfathers memoirs are very interesting and have never been published. My dad tried putting it together, had it all typed up from handwritten records using photos my grandfather took during his time and using sourced images where needed, airfields or aircraft mentioned. He adjusted some of the text, to make it read better or correct things like references to general events, (a mistake in my opinion, he should have added footnotes and the like instead). My dad did come up with a good title for the publication and the forward from Dunnett ??(the guy who led the first troops into Cyprus) is a really nice endorsement. There are alot of images from his time in Iraq, and a fair few of some airfields in the early 1920's under canvas whilst they were being upgraded that ive never seen elsewhere. Some interesting stuff when he spent some time on joint forces operation of very early coastal command down the South East there, Isle of something or other, ah theres too much to remember without me refering to the actual texts. He was in 100 squadron for a fair while 1928 onwards i think.

I have been on the precipitous edge of having an attempt myself of getting it published, but in all honesty i think (15 years after my fathers attempt) it needs a publisher with sympathy for the subject. I think it would be fantastic to have RAF interest to a level where they feel the document is of historical interest and is worth investing the full publishing costs. Maybe things have changed 15 years on and the relevence of Iraq in recent years, plus the 90th year of RAF formation. But i doubt it. Failing that its publication would require a publisher who is sympathetic to the documents and subject.

One interesting thing about him that i haven't found out and that he doesnt mention in his memoires for obvious reasons i guess is his demotion. Here how his rank lists on his service records from Cpl onwards:

A/Sgt/Pd.

Sergeant

Flight Sergeant

Sergeant Officer

F/Sgt then text i cant make out....GC?M i think.

A/W/O

Sen, F/Sgt restored.

He was held in Safe custody by HHQ Malta.

I think he got into a fight with a senior officer (he was rather handy with his fists) but ive never been able to find out why he was demoted, why he was held in safe custody, just that he was charged and demoted. if anyone knows a possible way of finding out what the charge was?? Ive got his service records, but they are photocopies and not good ones at that. I requested a colour copy of his service records and im waiting on them.

And yes, excuse me ive had AIR 79's, WO 363's, R101's, and DOD's going around all too fast in my head. He was on the R33 your right, not the R34. And yes they were Gloster Grebes, didnt know they were called parasite fighters:)

Cheers for the picture aswell:) Can you go inside the cab? I admit i do have an urge to go and stand where me grandfather once stood. Ah you cant go in i guess. I can see the dummies stood there now!!

...Dummies and Balloonatics???!?!?..lol

If anyone is interested in more on my grandfather PM me, as this thread is really about John Chamberlain not my grandad and i dont want people who read the thread getting too confused between the two.

Back to John Chamberlain. I have a question about the balloon company. Typically how far behind the front line would these balloon companies be situated?

Ill update on anything more i find:)

Cheers

[Adrian Roberts]

RFC01

From time to time memoirs such as these get published - some have been reviewed on this forum. But I suspect they are published by "Vanity Publishers" who would expect you to pay to have them printed (probably a four-figure sum) and quite possibly do your own marketing to try and recoup the cost. If they are long enough to be a full-length book, you could possibly try Grub Street or Pen & Sword (not vanity publishers AFAIK).

Yes, they are dummies in control car of R33, and you can't go inside - the back is against the outside wall of the main hall. But it was a good idea to hang it under the ceiling so that it looks as though it is under an airship hull - it looked quite surreal the first time I saw it; I didn't realise until then that this relic still existed.

Adrian

[Starlight]

In answer to your question: "Typically how far behind the front line would these balloon companies be situated?"

From The RFC/RNAS Handbook - tethered balloons were operated between 2 and 5 miles inside the allied lines and up to altitudes of 5,000 feet, though the most common operational altitude was 1,000 feet.

Regards

Steve

[per ardua per mare per terram]

tethered balloons were operated between 2 and 5 miles inside the allied lines ...

Which would only be a few minutes/seconds flying time depending on ground speed.

Balloons and airships were different; there are several papers at Kew on general operations of observation balloons. The numbers of Royal Flying Corps balloon sections increased in 1917 to take over from the Royal Naval Air Service secions that were pulled back to the UK.

[RFC01]

Thanks for answering these questions for me. I kind of guessed that the answers would come from the books you mentioned. Just having looked at some of the maps i just wanted a better idea of where the battalion would be placed in relation to the front line. I do need to get that book mind.

Ok a more broad question.

On my looking about i found Worldwarone.com with this map. I can see a II in a box but im guessing that isnt 2nd Brigade and that theyd be under the divisions held by Gough just to the east of Ypres or to the west of Ypres?.

Cheeers

[Starlight]

On my looking about i found Worldwarone.com with this map. I can see a II in a box but im guessing that isnt 2nd Brigade and that theyd be under the divisions held by Gough just to the east of Ypres or to the west of Ypres?.

In the later stages of the 3rd Battle of Ypres (2nd Battle of Passchendaele) II Corps was part of the 2nd Army, but on 2nd November 1917 II Corps relieved XVIII Corps and operated as part of the 5th Army. So from the map you are looking at it would appear that Number 17 Balloon Company would have been operating just to the south of Zillebeke lake, south east of Ypres. As a matter of interest, Lijssenhoek cemetery is roughly on the left edge of the map to the left of Dickebusch lake (the funny shape south west of Ypres), only a few miles from the general position of II Corps.

Regards

Steve

[RFC01]

Cheers Steve.

That really helps me out. OK now i just need a few things clearing up on army structure as im getting confused.

John was in a Balloon Company 17, which in turn was part of a KBS? which in turn was part of II Brigade. Is that the same as II corp? That Brigade was part of a division?? The division was part of a corp? And the corp was part of an army, in this case 5th and 2nd Army.

Confused with names an structure of British Army in all of this. Hope someone can set me straight.

Cheers again

[Starlight]

I think what I'm about to write is correct.

Each Balloon Company was comprised of several Kite Balloon Sections (KBS), normally two. I've read somewhere that Number 17 Balloon Company had three KBS as part of it - 18, 23 and 36 (though I'm not absolutely sure about these numbers). When II Brigade was set up it was part of the 2nd Army and was made up of the 2nd Corps Wing and 11th Army Wing (as far as aircraft were concerned). It also had under it its own Balloon Company and the associated KBS - that's where Number 17 Balloon Company came in. The only really confusing thing is that II Corps moved from the control of the 2nd Army to thee 5th Army. Does that make sense?

Steve

[RFC01]

Yes what you say makes perfect sense.

I look at the Long Long trail though and i dont see a 2nd Corp Wing or 11th Army Wing. Also on there it gives the order: Army, division, brigade or battalion etc. The only division i see that appear to go from 2nd Army to 5th Army are 58th and 63rd divisions with no mention of a II brigade. Just a II corp that relieved XVII corp on 2nd Nov.

But then 1st division disappears.

Only mention i find to a 2nd brigade is within the 1st division..????!?!!! but nothing to suggest RFC..

Cheers

[Starlight]

The Long Long Trail does not cover the Royal Flying Corps side of things. II Brigade was set up by the RFC to support the 2nd Army and comprised the 2nd (Corps) Wing of RFC squadrons and the 11th (Army) Wing of RFC squadrons, not to be confused with the army II Corps. II Brigade RFC also had Balloon companies under it, including Number 17. I have attached a copy of an operational report I found on the Internet for II Brigade. It provides a summary of the events over a period in November 1917, for both its squadrons and the KBS units within II Brigade.

Regards

Steve

[RFC01]

Cheers Steve for that:) Isnt that from the last day of Paschendale?

I guess id need to know which KBS 17 balloon company is in.

i would presume that to be a long shot.

I looked through AIR 1 on the NA and have edited a .csv file. any ref. to Balloon operations, etc either in 1917, or if they refer to Balloon Section organisation or ground crew info or formation of units beginning 1916. I guess they are my next port of call.

Ive not had much experience with the NA apart from downloading a couple of medal cards. Does it take a while for them to get back with an estimate? I asked them to look at 5 documents for me, all fairly clear requests i would say.

Well anyway, i did find the http://www.the-rfc.co.uk/ site with that doc u posted above.....i altered my search query a bit on google and there it appeared....*sighs*...lol

Interesting site that, i think ill drop em an email.

Cheers

[Starlight]

The village of Paschendale was taken on the 6th November 1917, with the 'Third Ypres' ending on the 10th November.

At the end of November Number 17 Balloon Company was part of the 2nd Balloon Wing (which in turn was part of II Brigade RFC), along with 7 other Balloon Companies (5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13 and 20). Each of the Companies consisted of two Kite Balloon Sections, with the exception of Number 17, which had three. According to Chris Hobson's "Airmen Died in the Great War" the order of battle as at march 1918 - which could of course be different to that in November 1917 - the KBS associated with Number 17 Balloon Company were 18, 23 and 36.

Steve

[RFC01]

Steve. Thanks very much.

How are you finding out that 17 balloon Company was part of 2nd balloon Wing? Amazing. You must have a fair amount of literature to hand about this subject to get down to finding this out.

Cheers