Uniform ID

[Clive Temple]

Pals,

Can you ID this uniform please?

[Greg]

RAF

[Clive Temple]

Cheers Greg. Any date?

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd hazard a wild guess at 1920's. Looks like RAF uniform as opposed to Army/RNAS type. Is it the same chap as the other you posted?

[Greg]

Yes from the shape of the cap and the uniform I would think early 1920s. I am not an expert on RAF uniform but the buttons on the greatcoat don't seem to have the same insignia as I would expect. Looks like an eagle in a dive but my eyesight is not what it was! It might be worth searching on the airforce part of the forum- there have been a number of discussions on RAF uniform there ,particularly the very early stages of the RAF . The first officers uniform was pale blue but this was considered rather ruritanian and blue grey as currently worn was then adopted. In May 1919 I have pictures taken of R34 flight. The ORs are wearing a mixture of RNAS and Army clothing.Straightforward army service dress. Some officers are still in RNAS uniform and some have the new service dress with cuff rank and no shoulder straps. Unfortunately no idea whether they were the pale blue or blue grey uniforms According to Wikipaedia (not the most reliable source) ORs got a belted khaki tuni in 1918 although a long wearing out period for old uniforms was allowed and this was the first uniform on which shoulder 'eagles' were used. This would appear to match up with your first photograph. Blue Grey was introduced in April 1920. Khaki uniform was finally withdrawn in 1924, although presumably not for RAF airmen in armoured cars in the tropics!

Greg

[FROGSMILE]

Pals,

Can you ID this uniform please?

The uniform and greatcoat shown was the first purpose designed one for the RAF and issued in 1919. It was in the now ubiquitous blue-grey and had two striking (in that they were relatively new) features. It was the first uniform designed specifically for the RAF after WW1 and had 2 unusual features, a sewn in self-fabric waist belt secured by a button and no shoulder straps. The officers uniform also had no shoulder strap but the self fabric belt was fitted with a brass buckle and this later replaced the button arrangement for airmen also. The cap was also unusual in that it had a leather peak to replace the earlier cloth one. All these features were intended to give the RAF a unique and distinctive appearance but also reflect the cultural influences of its two (former) constituent parts, the RNAS (RN) and the RFC (Army).

[FROGSMILE]

Pic showing airmens' and officers' versions of the 1919 uniform. The SNCO is T E Lawrence of 'Lawrence of Arabia' fame.

[Muerrisch]

Pic showing airmens' and officers' versions of the 1919 uniform. The SNCO is T E Lawrence of 'Lawrence of Arabia' fame.

Oh! Oh!

I saw that photo in the Telegraph and nearly queried it then.

I have a copy of much of TE Lawrence's RAF service record ..... he never made NCO according to that.

The collateral in the documents for this fact is that TEL was awarded a good conduct badge a few years before discharge. In the RAF, this badge could not go to an NCO.

Either the photo is not him, or he was mucking about in someone else's tunic, I believe.

I would [as a TEL afficionado] very much like proof that the photo was indeed of him, it would rewrite history.

[centurion]

Perhaps its TEs face on another photo? If you look closely it does look like an early cut and paste job (literally)

[David Filsell]

Too tall for TEL and head far too small. He really had a big head! in the specific sennse at least

[Gunboat]

I agree with Dave I think it has been misidentified as lawrence

[Muerrisch]

and, if TEL, improperly dressed twice over as TEL qualified for campaign medals.

[FROGSMILE]

and, if TEL, improperly dressed twice over as TEL qualified for campaign medals.

I wonder who the journalist was who captioned the photo. Clearly not Max Hastings.

[Grovetown]

The uniform and greatcoat shown was the first purpose designed one for the RAF and issued in 1919. It was in the now ubiquitous blue-grey and had two striking (in that they were relatively new) features. It was the first uniform designed specifically for the RAF after WW1 and had 2 unusual features, a sewn in self-fabric waist belt secured by a button and no shoulder straps.

Not quite the case I’m afraid; with distinct patterns being created in 1918, and not necessarily blue either.

The first dedicated RAF OR uniform was a serge (for which read drab) Service Dress that was introduced in, IIRC, July 1918. It was rapidly superseded (in October) with another serge version. The first version had a buckled belt; the second that with the buttoned belt. Blue uniform for RAF ORs was sanctioned in July 1918 also.

Blue officers uniform was sanctioned for service dress wear in July 1918 (it was limited to mess dress before then). Air Ministry Weekly Order 1140 of October 1918 ordered that all officers should possess at least one suit of RAF pattern; with officers only permitted to wear their old pre-RAF service dress as working dress within the confines of their aerodromes.

Best wishes.

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

Not quite the case I’m afraid; with distinct patterns being created in 1918, and not necessarily blue either.

The first dedicated RAF OR uniform was a serge (for which read drab) Service Dress that was introduced in, IIRC, July 1918. It was rapidly superseded (in October) with another serge version. The first version had a buckled belt; the second that with the buttoned belt. Blue uniform for RAF ORs was sanctioned in July 1918 also.

Blue officers uniform was sanctioned for service dress wear in July 1918 (it was limited to mess dress before then). Air Ministry Weekly Order 1140 of October 1918 ordered that all officers should possess at least one suit of RAF pattern; with officers only permitted to wear their old pre-RAF service dress as working dress within the confines of their aerodromes.

Best wishes.

GT.

Thanks for that clarification GT, I was aware that the patterns for RAF blue were sealed in 1918 but had been under the impression from various publications on RAF uniform that they were not 'issued' until 1919 and it is that I was referring to, the actual issue to the men. Given that the RAF was only formed on 1 April 1918, it was my understanding from these publications that the Khaki uniforms (of which their were many 1,000s) had first to be worn out until the Nation's peacetime finances could bear the cost of kitting out the new Service when it was fully stretched on greater priorities.

That did not stop the new Service from 'experimenting' with new colours in 1918, of which the first was a much paler blue (perhaps that to which you are referring?) than the blue-grey later adopted and univerally disliked due to its 'Ruritanian appearance'. All the pics above are after 1918 (i.e. 1919 on) and I have yet to see a pic of a 1918 RAF man in blue-grey uniform of the kind that started this thread.

[Grovetown]

I know what you’re saying, but then I’m sure you might agree in retrospect that the 7th June post looks a tad ambiguous at best; and or somewhat unequivocal otherwise. If we look at it more ‘tightly’:

The uniform …… shown was the first purpose designed one for the RAF and issued in 1919. It was in the now ubiquitous blue-grey and had two striking (in that they were relatively new) features.

The first purpose designed one for the RAF (ORs) was serge/ khaki and introduced in July 1918, with the second type introduced in October 1918. They had the "striking" new features. There are a number of illustrations of of the first type at least having been issued in 1918.

Blue for ORs was introduced in July 1918. I agree about issue – and certainly the wont of images showing the same. Andrew Cormack, Keeper of Uniforms at Hendon, is inconclusive in his British Airforces 1914-1918 (2) about date of issue; with the earliest image he features (of an NCO in blue) is Feb 1919.

But the point made was about first RAF SD...

Officer’s Blue was laid down almost immediately upon formation of the RAF, albeit as mess dress. The point of issue is moot for officers; but, again, one can see it being worn – post July 1918 authorisation – in 1918.

For instance, I have an original photograph album from a member of 35 Sqdn (Big Acks) in which happily most of the individuals are identified and/ or locations named and/or dated. The images range from training at Hythe, to France in August, to (latest dated) Christmas 1918. RAF officer service dress is plainly worn; alongside Army SDs and Maternity tunics.

Best wishes.

GT.

PS/ All a bit academic really, as that cap badge is May 1919 onward....

[FROGSMILE]

I know what you’re saying, but then I’m sure you might agree in retrospect that the 7th June post looks a tad ambiguous at best; and or somewhat unequivocal otherwise. If we look at it more ‘tightly’:

The first purpose designed one for the RAF (ORs) was serge/ khaki and introduced in July 1918, with the second type introduced in October 1918. They had the "striking" new features. There are a number of illustrations of of the first type at least having been issued in 1918.

Blue for ORs was introduced in July 1918. I agree about issue – and certainly the wont of images showing the same. Andrew Cormack, Keeper of Uniforms at Hendon, is inconclusive in his British Airforces 1914-1918 (2) about date of issue; with the earliest image he features (of an NCO in blue) is Feb 1919.

But the point made was about first RAF SD...

Officer’s Blue was laid down almost immediately upon formation of the RAF, albeit as mess dress. The point of issue is moot for officers; but, again, one can see it being worn – post July 1918 authorisation – in 1918.

For instance, I have an original photograph album from a member of 35 Sqdn (Big Acks) in which happily most of the individuals are identified and/ or locations named and/or dated. The images range from training at Hythe, to France in August, to (latest dated) Christmas 1918. RAF officer service dress is plainly worn; alongside Army SDs and Maternity tunics.

Best wishes.

GT.

PS/ All a bit academic really, as that cap badge is May 1919 onward....

With the establishment of the Royal Air Force as an independent service on1 april 1918, orders were issued detailing new uniform patterns. Major General Mark Kerr designed the first officer uniform which was largely pale blue with gold braid trimmings. Additionally, the RFC use of khaki was continued. [...]

The 'wearing out' period also applied to Other Ranks. Former members of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service continued to wear their old uniforms. New recruits into the newly formed Royal Air Force were often issued with the khaki Army Pattern General Service Tunic. Later in 1918 a belted khaki uniform was adopted for other ranks, and it was these tunics that first carried the RAF eagle badges on each shoulder.

The pale blue colour for officers' uniforms was unpopular and impractical and John Slessor who was later promoted to MArshal of the RAF described it as "a nasty pale blue with a lot of gold over it, which brought irresistibly to mind a vision of the gentlemen who stands outside the cinema". A little over a year after its introduction, the pale blue colour was discontinued. On the 15 September 1919, Air Ministry Order 1049 replaced it with the blue-grey colour which has remained in use to this day. The khaki uniform continued to be worn until 1924 when it too was replaced by a blue-grey colour.