New member question regarding casualities.

[Guest]

Hello folks,

My first post.

My Grandfather:

ARTHUR EDMOND ORSLER

Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own)

1st Battalion

Born Shoreditch

Enlisted Shoreditch

Residence Shoreditch, Middx.

Rank

RIFLEMAN Number S/18061

Died Date

02/10/1917

Died How

Killed in action

Remembered Tyne Cot.

I have his medal card and also the war diaries for the day he was killed. The diaries show that his Brigade were at the front line and that it was 'quiet' on the day he died.

One question is how was it known that he was killed in action rather than 'missing' in action. Also how would it be known on what day he died. Was there a roll call each day ?

The diaries give this Brigade casualities in action for the month of September as nil, but I cannot find any October figures.

I have got the map of the area at this time but cannot quite interpret it fully to see exactly where he may have fallen..

Any help or guidance appreciated or any further information most welcome.

I am fortunate in having all this information and I have his 'death plaque' and the very few medals he had awarded.

I am interested to find out when he was called up.

He had only just married in 1915 and his only child (my Father) was born Dec 1915, I would like to know if my Grandfather ever saw his only child or was he away at war when my Dad was born.

Thank you in advance

Brenda

[Andrew Hesketh]

Brenda,

Welcome.

We have Rifle Brigade experts on the forum so I've taken the liberty of adapting your topic title in the hope of luring one in! If one 'bites' they may be able to suggest a date of enlistment from his service number (this is not 'my' regiment so I won't hazard a guess). They may well be able to do much more as well.

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Brenda,

Firstly welcome to the forum. That name is familiar for some reason, did I send you the details on Rootschat???

Anyway, you have the war diary, if you read the entry for the 2/10/17 it reads:-" Front line Quiet, Support Company and Bn HQ heavily shelled."

The 1st Rifle Brigade relieved the 1st Kings Own Regiment ENE of Langemark on the 1st. To the right of the diary entry you will see Appendix 1, do you have the Appendix as in there you will find that A Company were the company in support in the relief orders in Appendix 1 and that the Battalion HQ was situated at map reference (looks like) U.99.b.76.98.

Andy

(just checked, I did send you all the diary some time ago)

[stiletto_33853]

Brenda,

Having a quick look at the enlistments and possible date, it certainly looks like early December 1915 for his joining up. We have around the S17500 - S/17600 range on the 8/12/15 and the S/18200 - S/18400 number range on 12/12/15, with a couple of exceptions, so it looks like December 1915.

Andy

[Chris_Baker]

Brenda, back to one of your original questions. Yes, there was a roll call on a frequent basis and certainly on coming out of an action or on being relieved from the front line. Where men were missing from roll call, reports would be made from others as to whether they were known to be dead, wounded, taken away to hospital, captured. He would be recorded as being missing if no one knew or there were no survivors who might have known. At some later point if a man's body was found (which could be within hours, days or years) his status as killed in action was confirmed. Of course, many men initially reported as missing were later found alive, either being treated at a hospital or as they eventually made their own way back or, in a small number of cases, were found out of the area they should have been in by the Military Police.

[Andrew Hesketh]

We have Rifle Brigade experts on the forum so I've taken the liberty of adapting your topic title in the hope of luring one in!

Ha, got bites from two of the biggest fish in the pond!

[Guest]

Thank you all for the replies.

Yes, Andy, you kindly sent me the war diaries quite some time ago.

I have read them many times and could not quite make out if my Grandfather was 'active' on the 2nd Oct. I see from your reply that his Battalion relieved the 1st Kings Own Regiment the day before he died. I am not sure exactly what a rifleman's position was at the front. Having read and seen what happened in the trenches I wonder if I rifleman actually 'went over the top' or would be firing from a fixed position. I couldn't make out from the diaries if an assault was made on 2nd Oct or if there was maybe artilliary and sniping that killed my Grandfather.

The diaries did not give a record for the casualities during October as they had for September.

I was sad to read that his enlistment was probably in December 1915. My Dad was born 30th Dec 1915 and this would mean that my Grandfather probably did not see his only child, unless he got to come home before he died.

The sadder thing is that just after the war my Father's Mother died and Dad was adopted. He knew nothing of his parents. It is only now that all this information is readily available thanks to the forums and an interest in genealogy.

My Dad would have loved to have gleaned all this information but unfortunately he passed away in 1984.

Kind regards

Brenda

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Brenda,

Sorry that I can not be more precise for you re the positions on 1/2nd October. As you will see from the rest of the diary I sent you there are far more detailed reports for the actions of the battalion later in the month.

Appendix 1 is a little sparse on the information side, so we can only go by the reports in the appendix were you will see that A Company RB will relieve B Company K.O.R. in support during the relief on the night of 1st - 2nd with the Coy HQ at Double Cots.

Given that the War Diary reports a quiet front line and that the Support and battalion HQ was heavily shelled, we can only guess that he was caught up as a casualty in this shell fire I am afraid to say. Mind you, define a quiet day in the front line during October 1917 in that region.

There are a couple of numbers in the S/17500 to S/18300 range that are out of sorts, but, all the others are 8th to 12th December 1915, sorry to have made you sad with this bit with regard to your family. The Rifleman in the RB went over the top just the same as a Private, which is the same rank.

Andy

[Guest]

Thank you Andy and everyone that replied to my post.

I have quite a bit more reading to do on the trech activities in WW1 and hope to learn more,

Brenda