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kaisersoffensive

UVF pin badge

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kaisersoffensive

Hello

I should br most greatful for any help in identification of the pin badge , a photograph of which is hopefully attached to this request.

The two items have been in my posession for some time and were obtained together from a bonna fide source.The arm band carries the owners name James Kerr and I have been able to check him out on the online listing of those individuals who signed Ulsters League and Covenant.

I have seen other examples of the badge but they have all been numbered and prefixed with a letter.They were for wearing in the lapel of a coat .

My question is this

Did females sign this Covenant and could this badge with a pin fixing be an example of those issued to women?

Any help as always greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Bob Norman

post-7238-1212422909.jpg

post-7238-1212422934.jpg

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tommy mcclimonds

Bob

Try this site for your UVF question.

http://www.uvf.info/index.php?option=com_f...ge&Itemid=1

The official "Ulster Covenant" website seems to be down at the moment but you will get it in Google. The introduction will tell you a bit of background that men signed the covenant and women signed the declaration.

Regards, Tommy.

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ulsterlad2

Hi Bob,

Re: women

Only men signed "The Covenant". Women signed "The Declaration". However both can be searched via the proni website's Covenant link.

Kind regards.

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kaisersoffensive

Bob

Try this site for your UVF question.

http://www.uvf.info/index.php?option=com_f...ge&Itemid=1

The official "Ulster Covenant" website seems to be down at the moment but you will get it in Google. The introduction will tell you a bit of background that men signed the covenant and women signed the declaration.

Regards, Tommy.

Hello Tommy,

Very many thanks for your helpful reply.

Regards,

Bob

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kaisersoffensive

Hi Bob,

Re: women

Only men signed "The Covenant". Women signed "The Declaration". However both can be searched via the proni website's Covenant link.

Kind regards.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Many thanks,

Bob

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rob elliott

Hello Bob,

The badge appears to be a standard UVF lapel badge issued to each volunteer.

The letter would relate to a county or Belfast (four districts of the city] or Londonderry City.

The number would be the mans own UVF number.

However are you saying there is no number on the reverse?

The original badges have a cresent moon fixing pin, on which the number is stamped.

The copies of these badges have pin fixings and are of a heavier construction. The originals are quite thin.

I don't know if the enrolment list survives for antrim, i am not aware of it.

Rob

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Billy Bittles

Hi you will find out all you need to know at my site www.belfastsomme.com

Here is a link to the UVF page which gives details about the badge and armband

http://www.belfastsomme.com/uvf.htm

and here is a link to the Covenant page which gives details on women signing

http://www.belfastsomme.com/ulster_loyalty.htm

B)

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kaisersoffensive

Hello Bob,

The badge appears to be a standard UVF lapel badge issued to each volunteer.

The letter would relate to a county or Belfast (four districts of the city] or Londonderry City.

The number would be the mans own UVF number.

However are you saying there is no number on the reverse?

The original badges have a cresent moon fixing pin, on which the number is stamped.

The copies of these badges have pin fixings and are of a heavier construction. The originals are quite thin.

I don't know if the enrolment list survives for antrim, i am not aware of it.

Rob

Many thanks Rob for your reply.

It would seem then that this badge which is pin fixing is therefore a copy.

Regards,

Bob Norman.

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auchonvillerssomme

I don't think it is necessarily a copy, just not one of the ones originally issued. My mother-in-law gave me one of these badges which has been in the family for years.

Mick

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kaisersoffensive

I don't think it is necessarily a copy, just not one of the ones originally issued. My mother-in-law gave me one of these badges which has been in the family for years.

Mick

Hello

Many thanks for this posting.I am almost 100% certain that this badge along with the arm band as pictured have similarly remained together.The fact that it had a pin fixing and not the numbered letter prefix lapel variety suggested to me that it might be worn by a female.

I know women wore jackets but did they have button holes?

Anyway I am now left in a quander.

Regards,

Bob Noramn

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rob elliott

Bob/Mick

The original lapel badges were stamped out from the back and carry a manufacturers code. The quality of the pressing are usually very good.

I have about 14 of them and they are all made in the same way even though the metal is not always pure brass.

With the material being thin most of them are slightly distorted too.

E-bay has recently had a few on that were original and depending on there Number/Letter they were going for up to £100.

The pin back ones were going for £3-5.

Some UVF/36th Division badges were copied as far back as the 60's [14th Rifles-YCV especially] and you can see them pop up on e-bay.

Original UVF stuff like the armband gets a high price now.

I have seen one blank badge some years ago and was led to believe it belonged to UVF Staff HQ.

It would not be too difficult to make a copy and perhaps if it is very old it may have been done as a sweetheart brooch, as was done with many regimental badges and buttons.

I have the full enrolment list for the Londonderry Battalions. If anyone has a badge belonging to the City i can tell you who's it was.

These will be pre-fixed with the letter 'I'

Rob

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kaisersoffensive

]

I don't think it is necessarily a copy, just not one of the ones originally issued. My mother-in-law gave me one of these badges which has been in the family for years.

Mick

Hello Mick

I have rather badly attempted to photograph the back of this badge against the buckle of the arm brassard.It gives an indication of size which is small.

The buckle itself is marked with an elaborate scroll decoration and the wording SOLIDE.

What might not be apparent from the photograph is the fact that the back of the badge is not plain but decorated with intervoven (doesn't look right to me

that) geometric line patterns.Seems a great deal of effort for a copy.

I am nearly 100% positive that the badge is manufactured from bronze and is fairly robust.

Does this muddy the waters more.

Regards,

Bob Norman

post-7238-1215255410.jpg

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auchonvillerssomme

I agree worn by women.

Mick

back

The badge came from Monaghan.

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rob elliott

Mick, Bob

In my opinion they are clearly not original badges and are similar to those now on e-bay, in fact realised i've got one myself.

Bob have seen this weaving on the reverse of them before.

Officially there was just the one badge produced. Its interesting to note the reverse of Mick's as the oval shape is actually too good.

This is a mistake the copies make, they cannot cheaply reproduce the look of an original.

The original have a raw edge.

There is a memo in the UVF papers relating to people manufacturing items and trying to pass them off as official, maybe this is the sort of thing.

Problem is no-one can say for sure what is a genuine period 'copy' or a later one and because of this most collectors woud say they are copies.

Considering there were some 80,000 originals made they are not too difficult to find, although as i said previously the price has shot up.

The numbered badges have provenence that can be traced.

Rob

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kaisersoffensive

Mick, Bob

In my opinion they are clearly not original badges and are similar to those now on e-bay, in fact realised i've got one myself.

Bob have seen this weaving on the reverse of them before.

Officially there was just the one badge produced. Its interesting to note the reverse of Mick's as the oval shape is actually too good.

This is a mistake the copies make, they cannot cheaply reproduce the look of an original.

The original have a raw edge.

There is a memo in the UVF papers relating to people manufacturing items and trying to pass them off as official, maybe this is the sort of thing.

Problem is no-one can say for sure what is a genuine period 'copy' or a later one and because of this most collectors woud say they are copies.

Considering there were some 80,000 originals made they are not too difficult to find, although as i said previously the price has shot up.

The numbered badges have provenence that can be traced.

Rob

Hello Rob,

Many thanks for the learned reply.I think that I would be more happy with a numbered badge for all the reasons you put forward.

Had I paid a large sum of money for the item then I should be rather disappointed.Both items were given to me from a family knowing of my interest

( but not knowledge ) in the 36th Ulster Div. and WW1.

Many thanks again,

Bob Norman

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auchonvillerssomme

I have no doubt mine is a 'genuine period copy' and part of my late mum-in-laws history.

But as I have said on a previous thread there are so many copies, reproductions of most badges I wouldnt bother even looking these days.

Mick

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rob elliott

Bob,

Have you tried the armband on. Bearing in mind these used to be worn over tweed type jackets they are so small.

It just shows the size of the men around the first war period.

Good looking example you have there, from up around Des' neck of the woods.

Rob

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Desmond7

Go here

http://www.freewebs.com/snake43/ballymenamuseumexhibit.htm

scroll down and you will see the armband and the badge in presentation box. I am led to understand that the box and badge were among a batch rescued from the old Braidwater Mill in its final demolition stages.

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John Pritchard
Go here

http://www.freewebs.com/snake43/ballymenamuseumexhibit.htm

scroll down and you will see the armband and the badge in presentation box. I am led to understand that the box and badge were among a batch rescued from the old Braidwater Mill in its final demolition stages.

this is an early 70s copy and the armband looks 100% original

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Guest merten_4_mcguffin

hello, i have inherited one of these, it has it an A stamped in the back and a 4 digit number. Does this stand for Antrim? Are these badges popular now? thanks

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Desmond7

Any name associated ? I have the numbers for North Antrim Regt UVF.

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rob elliott

Merten,

Depending on who is collecting the particular badge letter they can be worth £60-80, some on e-bay went higher.

Des,

is the list in numerical order?

Have these 'A's -

1222

5988

14213 [wondered if these are the post war ones as have a batch of 'G's with high numbers].

Rob

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Desmond7

A1222 associatedd with John Morrison, Greenvale Street, Ballymena North End

George C Young (later a privy counsellor) is first in sequence. He is A497 (he was the 'top boy' in Ballymena; main man at Braidwater Mill etc.)

More follows

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rob elliott

Des,

Thats great thanks for the info on John Morrison. This was my first ever UVF badge, years ago.

Rob

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Desmond7

Sadly none of your other numbers springing out ..

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