Lachlan07 Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 West Coast - isn't that also the battlecry/motto of the US 165th New York Infantry (NG), previously known as the 69th NY, which formed part of the famed Irish Brigade of the American Civil War ? Fág an bealach ! Éireann go Brách ! (or Faugh a Ballagh - Erin go Bragh !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 Mike, the lady who told me the pronunciation was from Dublin so that might have something to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west coast Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 lachlan, the only transation for "faugh a ballagh" that i am familiar with is 'clear the way' , i`m not aware of another.??. squirrel, i`m from dublin myself, and i know what the lady told you is also correct , sort of. for some words that finish in gh we sound the gh, for instance "glendalough" that would soud out as 'glendalock', [here in australia its sounded as 'glendalow'], maybe its the same in england?. but definately "faugh a ballagh" is sounded out as 'faa a ballaaa'. lakes in ireland are normally named 'lough ....' , and these would be sounded ' lock.....'. hope that doesnt sound gobblegook!!! cheers, mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 Sounds about as sensible as the English language pronunciation wise then. Tough and plough come to mind................... Thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2008 Share Posted 4 June , 2008 I've got some references for this somewhere - but Aberdeen is a great centre for Scots Language studies, so you're probably closer to the action than me on this anyway! I'm surprised your link doesn't mention the simple Present Participle explanation! The "Bide and fecht" theory doesn't sound very plausible to me! Fascinating eh! Cheers, Mark Well I'm not sure on the first bit as I am currently in the US!! I agree the bide and fecht contracted seems a bit odd.... as you have to assume the second word....your explantion seems simpler and more convincing...I'll just add it to the pile so next time someone looks at the badge and says...what does that mean I can pull out the folder and say... "funny you should ask......" Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 6 June , 2008 Share Posted 6 June , 2008 Well I'm not sure on the first bit as I am currently in the US!! I agree the bide and fecht contracted seems a bit odd.... as you have to assume the second word....your explantion seems simpler and more convincing...I'll just add it to the pile so next time someone looks at the badge and says...what does that mean I can pull out the folder and say... "funny you should ask......" Cheers Chris Chris and Pals, A sense of unfinished business on this Bydand discussion drove to me to dig out my copy of the Concise Scots Dictionary only to find it's not in there, so I surfed to the main Dictionary of the Scots Language website which is a joint venture by various Scottish & Irish universities. Here's an extract of the DSL entry explaining the changes to the '-and' form of the present participle ... -AND, suffix. Also -an. The suffix of the present participle in verbs, historically descended from Northern Old English -ande, and regularly in Old Scots but from c.1500 gradually giving way, especially in literary style, to the -in(g) ending of the verbal noun [i.e. gerund], as had happened earlier in England. The distinction was still recognised in speech, and less frequently in writing, until the late 19th c. when it was possible to differentiate in pronunciation between the present participle [-ɪn, -ən], and the verbal noun [-in]. This feature has now practically disappeared from all dialects, except south Scotland where it is obsolete. The participle form however survives in a few isolated words, sometimes as -ant, e.g. appearandly, awn(d) [='owing'], bydand, willant. I've expanded their abreviations & chopped out the example quotations to make it a bit easier to read! No specific mention of it being a Doric (i.e. North East) usage and in fact it seems to suggest it's survived better in the south. Incidentally that list of Doric words on the AboutAberdeen website mentioned earlier in this Topic includes a lot which are definitely common Scots words/usage and not specifically Doric - e.g. bairn, bawbee, dreich, feart, fitba, messages, orra, richt, siller etc. There's some great Doric words, but much of the rest of the list could be found in Rabbie Burns and he's pure Ayrshire - definitely not a Doric speaker LOL! And here's an extract of their Entry on Bydand itself ... BYDAND, n. The motto of the Gordon family; hence, the regimental motto and crest of the Gordon Highlanders. Bydand is the old Scots present patrticiple of Bide, verb, and hence means "abiding," "steadfast." [pronounced ˈbɑɪdɑnd] *Banffshire (Dialect usage) 1918 J. Mitchell Bydand 14: Fa wears "Bydand" hauds heech his head. Again, I've expanded their abbreviations for ease (for those not familiar with Scots - the example quotation in Standard English is roughly "[He] who wears [the motto] 'Bydand' holds high his head" ... and you can't disagree with that eh?! ) I reckon two hundred years ago we wouldn't be puzzled about this because we would be used to this '-and' form in our mainstream Scots language. Also, I'm a bit rusty on this, but didn't the Gordon family originally come from much further south in Scotland - the Borders or Ayrshire/Lanarkshire? IIRC they arrived in Huntly in the Highlands by being given land? This would put the roots of the Gordons in the Scots-speaking part of Scotland not the Gaelic part, and might further suggest the Scots explanation of the motto over the corrupted Gaelic one? Certainly I was wearing Gordon kilts because although we're Muirs from near Kilmarnock, there was some alliance with Gordons in the area that somehow entitled us to use the Gordon tartan as a backup! Mind you, all our modern use of tartan is "invented history" anyway dating back to Sir Walter Scott & co - LOL! Complex or what ?! Anyway HTH! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 6 June , 2008 Share Posted 6 June , 2008 Well that's me convinced! or confused.... Thanks Mark very interesting. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachlan07 Posted 7 June , 2008 Share Posted 7 June , 2008 Funny enough, I always thought there was a Canadian regiment with the Scottish Gaelic motto (or slogan):- Buaidh No Bas, which means Victory Or Death ! But I can't find it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 30 March , 2011 Share Posted 30 March , 2011 'Hodie non cras' the motto of the Canadian 1st Hussars is in Latin rather than Gaelic , 'Today not tomorrow' Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connaughtranger Posted 31 March , 2011 Share Posted 31 March , 2011 Us folk in Ireland pronounce these things slightly differently Mark Hi Are there still any gaelic speakers left alive in Ireland?? Surely they've all died off from some sort of brain damage?? I was always led to believe from my Latin grammar that the Romans died from having to learn impossible Latin. I've spent 6 months wrestling with Irish and, believe me, the Romans had it cushy! Slender, broad, lenited and eclipsed consonants, 'sh' pronounced 's' and s pronounced 'sh'; 'abh', 'obh' and 'ogh' all pronounced 'ow'; everything else seemingly pronounced 'v'!!!! However, I'll soldier on. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 25 April , 2020 Share Posted 25 April , 2020 On 02/06/2008 at 15:29, MBrockway said: Sorry Steve, but 'bydand' is actually English ... albeit in a rather archaic form! I think it's the present participle of the verb "to bide" meaning "biding" as in "biding my time" and for the Gordons is usually translated as "Remaining" with the sense being firm, unshakeable, reliable. Cheers, Mark English? ……. no ….....it is Doric, the curious dialect and "lingua local" formerly spoken in the North East of Scotland particularly around Aberdeen and the County of Aberdeenshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museumtom Posted 25 April , 2020 Share Posted 25 April , 2020 ...and there is no Y in the Irish Alphabet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 25 April , 2020 Share Posted 25 April , 2020 On 30/05/2008 at 16:43, tommarmot said: "Cuidigh n' Righ" is the motto of the Seaforth Highlanders. I understand that it means "Help the king" but how does one pronounce it? It was tattooed on my grandfathers forearm along with his regimental number. I've read that it is the only British army regimental motto that is in gaelic, but have come to suspect such claims. It is indeed a curious, and perhaps unique instance, where a simple question presented the combined GWF "Brains Trust" receives such a distracted follow on response. I'll address this...….for posterity's sake ……...Cuidigh n' Righ" is not,, but clearly nearly is, the motto of the Seaforth Highlanders. "Cuidich 'n Righ" is just that being displayed on the scroll of the Regimental badge. It does indeed mean "Help the King" and, in direct response to the question it is pronounced "coo-dee-k-n-ree" No need to question any claims of provenance - it is indeed the only British Army regimental motto in gaelic ……….less of course the antecedent regiments QO HLDRS and HLDRS that inherited it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 25 April , 2020 Share Posted 25 April , 2020 1 hour ago, TullochArd said: English? ……. no ….....it is Doric, the curious dialect and "lingua local" formerly spoken in the North East of Scotland particularly around Aberdeen and the County of Aberdeenshire. According to the National Dictionary it is the present participle of Early Scots 'bide' Quote BYDAND, n. The motto of the Gordon family; hence, the regimental motto and crest of the Gordon Highlanders. Bydand is the old Sc. pr.p. of Bide, v., and hence means “abiding,” “steadfast.” [′bɑɪdɑnd] Scottish National Dictionary When I say 'English' I'm referring to the language family, which includes Scots, not to Standard Modern English, and was responding to the incorrect suggestion that 'Bydand' was Gaelic. Doric is a dialect of Modern Scots and belongs to the same English language family. Legend has it the Clan Gordon Bydand motto goes back to the late 1500s, well before Modern Doric. The -and form of the present participle may have survived in the Doric dialect, but Modern Scots generally uses the -ing or -in' form. I wonder if bydand in Doric is a survival from Middle Scots, or whether its use by the Clan Gordon, Cock o'the North, whose power centre is the NE, and then the Gordon Highlanders regiment, has more to do with its persisting? Incidentally, I believe the English language family has now been "renamed" as 'Anglic', but it was 'English' when I did my degree last century . With my roots in the heart of Burns Country, perhaps I should welcome the change! Here's a schematic of the 'Anglic' family ... Quote Proto-Old English Northumbrian Mercian and Kentish West Saxon Early Northern Middle English Early Midland and Southeastern Middle English Early Southern and Southwestern Middle English Early Scots Northern Middle English Midland Middle English Southeastern Middle English Southern Middle English Southwestern Middle English Middle Scots Northern Early Modern English Midland Early Modern English Metropolitan Early Modern English Southern Early Modern English Southwestern EME, Yola, Fingallian Modern Scots Northern Modern English East and West Midlands Modern English Standard Modern English Southern Modern English West Country Modern English Bydand is also the present participle of Middle English 'biden' and appears with exactly the same 'resolute, standfast' usage in texts from well south of the border e.g. in one of the versions of the Romance of Sir Guy (late 1400s) where an army is described as: "a thousande bolde men and wele bydande" Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 26 April , 2020 Share Posted 26 April , 2020 (edited) Anglic it is then! An education no doubt. Edited 26 April , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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