Ross Mountain Battery

[Dingwall McIntosh]

I have found WO 372/13/10440, medal award 

 

[David Porter]

Sign up and download it for free here - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3825188
It will not tell you much though, apart from his Medal Roll reference.

[Neil M Clark]

Hi My Great Uncle John Menzies born 1895 at 40 Hill Street Dingwall. Was a Gunner (Reg No. 4807) in the Ammunition Column of the Ross Mountain Battery ( Named  in the Book 'Ross-shire Roll of Honour'  by George Souter).

 I have been trying to locate his Service records and/or medal records but cannot find any reference to either on all the main sites.

Not sure they even exist Anyone any ideas? 

 

 best regards neil

 

Apologies if i am on teh wrong page?

[Neil M Clark]

22 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

Hi My Great Uncle John Menzies born 1895 at 40 Hill Street Dingwall. Was a Gunner (Reg No. 4807) in the Ammunition Column of the Ross Mountain Battery ( Named  in the Book 'Ross-shire Roll of Honour'  by George Souter).

 I have been trying to locate his Service records and/or medal records but cannot find any reference to either on all the main sites.

Not sure they even exist Anyone any ideas? 

 

 best regards neil

 

Apologies if i am on teh wrong page?

Much obliged to The Old Sweats for the previous post and link re Re Numbering! ill have to do some digging re John Menzies. (Ammunition Column) His number was 4807 so thinking maybe originally he was assigned that number through Possibly 5th batt Seaforth Highlanders? Guessing. 

[David Porter]

Neil,

I've just gone through the Ross Battery renumbering in early 1917 and compared it with previous numbers in the Ross-shire Roll of Honour and Medal Rolls.

Angus McRitchie        301454    4398
James MacIver        301455    4399
Donald MacLeod        301456    4400
??           301457
Murdo Macaulay            4401 Died July 15, 1915
William J. Morrison            4402 (possibly renumbered 300045)
John Macdonald            4403 Died May 15, 1915
A Macdonald            4404
Charles MacLennan     301458     4801
Donald J. Dingwall         301459    4806
Norman McKenzie         301460    4808
??            301461
Kenneth McRae             301462    4811
John W. MacLennan     301463    4812
Roderick Stewart         301464    4814
Alexander Jack         301465    4815

It is fairly obvious that 4807 was missed from this section of TF renumbering, so one might assume that John Menzies was no longer associated with the battery in early 1917. He is not alone as 4802 - 4805 inclusive also appear to have been skipped. What is interesting is the jump from 4404 to 4801 with no numbers issued in between. This is not much to go on but in the absence of a Medal record he doesn't appear to have served overseas.

EDIT: Ooops, there is a good reason why 4805 is also not renumbered.

Edited 28 August , 2022 by David Porter

[Neil M Clark]

Hi David Thanks for this.

Yes i put in a couple of numbers either side of 4807 into Ancestry and came up with Urquhart (4805) with his original number, his Service records mention his unfortunate demise!. Looking at his Attestation, he clearly signs up in Dingwall on 02 March 1912. I'm assuming he would have gone through attestation on the same day as Menzies? Menzies was born  14 July 1895 and would only have been 16 years 7 months and 17 days old on 02 March 1912.  Did he have to be 17 years old to be able to sign up? Or was it that he couldnt go an active service until he was 17?

Either way, as you say, looking at the numbering he definitely wasn't with them at renumbering in 1917? Interesting to note the renumbering for these guys was for 4th Mountain Brigade Could he have signed on and only done his 4 years service, leaving in1916? looking at the Roll of Honour book....it was published in 1915 so assume Menzies was serving at least until that year.

When he left the Army he became a Painter/Decorator in Dingwall and after WW1 went to Belgium to help reconstruct the infrastructure. He married a Belgian girl in 1919.  I wonder if he saw service in Belgium pre 1918? Unfortunately for him he was interned as a civilian by the Germans in 1940 and released in 1944!. I have his internment records. For information his father died in 1907 and his mother died at the 40 Hill Street address in Dingwall on 17 October 1914.

Finding any service records at all would be great but not sure how i can do that!  Wonder if he joined another outfit or transferred elsewher. Not sure How many John Menzies there is out there. You have been a great help and thankyou for your time. ill keep looking. His Grandson we think is still alive in Belgium. I've left a few messages with Dingwall museum and will also try and see if i can find anything more about teh Ammunition Column that he appears to have been a member of. He had his photograph taken at Internment in 1940 but its difficult to say if he looks anything like the guys in teh Ammunition Column photo in the Ross-Shire Roll of Honour Book.. Incidently, his name says his rank is Gunner so am assuming if he was in that photograph he wouldn't likely be wearing a Bandolier.

Best regards

Once again thanks

For info. Photo of John Menzies aged 45 on Internment and subsequent imprisonment at Tost Internment Camp until 1944.

[ss002d6252]

3 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

 

Either way, as you say, looking at the numbering he definitely wasn't with them at renumbering in 1917? Interesting to note the renumbering for these guys was for 4th Mountain Brigade Could he have signed on and only done his 4 years service, leaving in1916? looking at the Roll of Honour book....it was published in 1915 so assume Menzies was serving at least until that year.

Until Session 2 of the MSA 1916 in May 1916 a discharged soldier wasn't subject to conscription. After that point he would be.

A March 1912 enlistment on a 4yr term wouldn't however be discharged as Time Expired in March 1916. The terms of service in wartime were extended by 12 months, so he would not become Time Expired until March 1917. At this point men would fall under the MSA 1916 and would not be discharged just as Time Expired.

Craig

[Neil M Clark]

Hi Craig many thanks for responding. Thats something i didn't know. CertainlyJohn Menzies is proving to be an intriguing guy.. Ill try and do a bit more reseach over the next few days.

Once again many thanks for everyones contributions.

 

Best regards

 

Neil

[kenf48]

21 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

I'm assuming he would have gone through attestation on the same day as Menzies? Menzies was born  14 July 1895 and would only have been 16 years 7 months and 17 days old on 02 March 1912.  Did he have to be 17 years old to be able to sign up? Or was it that he couldnt go an active service until he was 17?

Not necessarily on the same day but probably long before his seventeenth birthday.  If he declared he was seventeen on enlistment then that was his ‘Army age’.  Recruits were not obliged to provide proof of birthdate.

He could legitimately enlist in the TF at seventeen.  The TF was a part timer reserve force formed for Home Defence. They were not intended to go on active service overseas, for which the regular Army stipulated a soldier should be aged nineteen.

The TF was ‘embodied’ for war service in August 1914.  The Declaration embodying the TF is on the Long Long Trail website.

The Ross Shire Mountain Battery were posted to their wartime station at Locherran and volunteered for active service. I believe they joined the Highland Division in Bedford before being posted to the 29th Division and the Dardanelles.

On the 19 September authority was granted by the War Office to form a second line - home defence/drafting unit. Typically whilst recruitment was advertised the nucleus of second line TF units was formed from those trained men of the first line who were either too young, or old for active service, were unfit or for whatever reason had not signed the Imperial Obligation.

I’ve only looked at a couple of the medal index cards of soldiers posted in the series by @David Porter above and it appears they did not go to the Dardanelles with the Battery (no Star), neither is the original number listed on the medal roll or index cards.

There is, incidentally an article in the Northern Chronicle 28 October 1914 noting the funeral of ‘Mrs Menzies’ aged 56 attended by her three sons; Simon. 'in a situation in Lanarkshire'; John and Donald “who are both serving their country the former being in the Ross-Shire Mountain Battery and the latter a Corporal in the 4th Seaforths.” (Probably Cpl 1855/200293).

 

[Neil M Clark]

Hi Ken thanks for this! Its becoming a little clearer. I notice Urquhart (4805) mentioned earlier by David was 16 years 10 months and 24 days old on 02 March 1912 ( according to his obituary newspaper clip).

As you say it appears he never went with the Battery to Gallipoli/Dardanelles for whatever reason. A bit odd that his name appears as a member of the Ammunition Column in the Ross-Shire Roll of Honour Book published in 1915.

With regards the newspaper announcement. what a result that is thanks!

On their mothers Death certificate Donald would appear to be the reporting person and has annotated his address as 'Bedford' ; which fits in with the Division being there at the time? If John is also at the funeral then he is reasonably close and within travel distance of Dingwall. Simon appears in the 1939 Register as Miner- Coal Level (Below) Heavy Worker in Burnley. Ill checkout why perhaps he was in Lanarkshire in 1914; he would have been about 29 years old in 1914.

 

Ill do some research on Donalds service records/Service Career. I will try and locate a copy of the article you mention from the Northern Chronicle.

 

Once again many thanks for your help its all very much appreciated.

 

 Regards

 

Neil

[Neil M Clark]

Hi Ken

 

Just quickly looking at Donald Menzies 1855/200293 he certainly has a Medal Roll Card annotated Sgt at the top. It also states I think that he was awarded a Silver War Badge.

The only guy i can see on the Silver War Badge listings is for a Sgt Donald Menzies from The Depot Seaforth Highlanders. However they have his number as 2000299! Same guy possibly?

I'm having no luck picking up his service records with either Regimental number of 1855/200293

 

 best regards

 

Neil

[kenf48]

22 hours ago, Neil M Clark said:

Just quickly looking at Donald Menzies 1855/200293 he certainly has a Medal Roll Card annotated Sgt at the top.

I only said probably, if you are going to research Donald too I suggest you start a new topic.  As he has a SWB it is more than likely he will be in the WFA/Fold 3 Pension Records which will confirm or deny. I haven't time to look now but does the page on the SWB Roll coincide with the reference on the index card?

As for John all I can suggest is you look at the record for every John Menzies in the  14 - 15 Rolls and the BWM and VM Rolls.  There may be an absent voter list which will give his unit in early 1918. 

If he did go overseas with the Ross-shire Mtn Battery it is very likely he suffered from malaria (Salonika) or some other disease contracted in Egypt or Gallipoli.  He may even have been wounded.  If the latter he may be in a casualty list. Either way he also may have made a claim in the WFA records.

As an illustration, and one rabbit hole I went down last night  but came back empty handed was:-

4816 Mackenzie who enlisted 6th April 1913 in the "RGA Ross Mt by" at Applecross.
He goes with the Battery to Gallipoli, embarking with the main body from Avonmouth on the 19th March 1915.
He suffers enteric fever and is repatriated to the UK via Egypt in August 1915.
On recovery he embarks for Salonika on the 25th January 1917 to rejoin the battery, arriving on the 8th February 1917.  He is posted to the RGA Base and joins 196 HB RGA in the field in May and later posted to 192 HB
He suffers bouts of sickness and is in and out of various medical facilities
On the 26th November 1917 he is posted to the RFA and RHA and renumbered 646778 in April  1918 
More sickness and July 1918 posted back to the RGA In August 1918 retained in service and granted £15 Bounty (as did most of the men whose records have survived).
Then in September 1918 allotted RGA number 301466
So he was:-
4816 (TF)
301466 (TF)
646778 (RFA)
301466 (RGA)

I wondered if John transferred to the RFA and therefore was renumbered but apparently not.  He could however have been posted to, for example the Labour Corps.  Medals were named to the first unit and issued by the last.  FMP usually gives both numbers, but like you I've had no luck finding him to date.

 

 

 

[Neil M Clark]

Hi Thanks for all this. Ive looked at both SWB and Medal record and it looks like references could be the same  although G/167/1 on one of them could be read as G/107/1 on the other ( the zero might be a figure 6.  Ill try and add both the pics.

 

I appreciate your time and will take some time out to consider and follow your suggestions.

 

 Thanks neildon menzies medal record.pdfdon menzies medal record.pdf

[kenf48]

Seaforth SWB Roll unusually, but helpfully, gives his age, which might help identify him.

[Neil M Clark]

Good Morning Ken

Thanks for this. I have decided for the moment to primarily focus on John. With regards Donald I will look at making Donald another topic in due course. I think I need to hoist in all your advice and spend some time working on your suggestions to do some searching of the Rolls etc.

 Going back to John for a moment i stumbled across this guy and will put him into the pot. Says enlisted 1915 but would appear possibly he was discharged?

Best regards

 

Neil

 

[busterfield]

41 minutes ago, Neil M Clark said:

Good Morning Ken

Thanks for this. I have decided for the moment to primarily focus on John. With regards Donald I will look at making Donald another topic in due course. I think I need to hoist in all your advice and spend some time working on your suggestions to do some searching of the Rolls etc.

 Going back to John for a moment i stumbled across this guy and will put him into the pot. Says enlisted 1915 but would appear possibly he was discharged?

Best regards

 

Neil

 

this person has a service record on ancestry.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1114&h=581230&tid=&pid=&queryId=ae7f0c3e63cfe439d887dfbe18bcc241&usePUB=true&_phsrc=BAT3526&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*1nn0mx*_ga*NzQ0OTM1NzA0LjE2NTM3Mzg4NDk.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY2MTkzMzk3MC40MS4xLjE2NjE5MzQyNzQuMC4wLjA.

[Neil M Clark]

Hi  Thanks for this!

 

Im heading out for a few hours but will look on my return. On a brief look I can see this guy is not our John. I'm on Ancestry but I'm not exactly mastering their search techniques at the moment!!

 

Thanks for now.

 

best regards

 

Neil 

[busterfield]

John Menzies born 1878, Morayshire in military section.