2nd Rifle Brigade, Aubers Ridge

[dennisjnelson]

Hello

I've been reading thru this thread and it inspired me to join up.

My grandmother's brother was also in 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade and killed on May 9 1915 at 6:30 (not sure am or pm)

in front of Fromelles at a place called Crue Blanc, according to a letter, which I now think might be Rouges-Bancs.

I started a thread in his name on the "soldiers" forum that I believe will interest a few of the people here.

Rifleman Frederick George Peters #3955

Machine Gun Det.

2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade

[Victoria Burbidge]

I started a thread in his name on the "soldiers" forum that I believe will interest a few of the people here.

Dennis, I've posted a reply there.

V.

[Victoria Burbidge]

If anyone can furnish me with any more details about 2nd Lt Gray I would love to know.

Mark,

As promised, this is the information I currently have to hand regarding William Gray:

He was born on the 17th March 1882, the son of James Gray and James’ second wife Frances. He enlisted into the Rifle Brigade in April 1900, aged eighteen years and was in the ranks for fourteen years, 208 days. The 2nd Battalion returned from India in October 1914 and arrived in France on 7th November. Quartermaster-Sergeant Gray received his commission on 11th November 1914 and was posted to “D” Company.

In early March 1915, and just prior to the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, 2nd Lt. Gray took over the battalion’s Machine Gun Section.

William Gray was awarded the Military Cross for his actions at Rouges-Bancs, Fromelles on 9th May 1915:

“For leading reinforcements forward to the captured trench on 9th May, 1915, near Rouges-Bancs under heavy flanking rifle and machine-gun fire. Only about 25 per cent of his party reached their destination, the remainder being killed or wounded. He was of the greatest assistance to his Commanding Officer in making good the captured position, using a captured German machine-gun with great effect. This officer was the last to retire when the enemy’s trench had to be abandoned and he kept a continuous machine-gun fire until the enemy were within a few yards from the position.”

The fact that he “repaired” the captured machine gun is not mentioned. Shortly after this William became Brigade Machine Gun Officer. From hereon, information is a little sketchy.

The extract from the Army List reads:

2-Lt. 11/11/14 (temp. Capt. 25/5/15 to 31/12/16).

Lt. 15/6/15 (temp. Capt. MGC 19/1/16 to 30/11/16; temp Maj. MGC 1/12/16 to 30/3/22).

Capt. 1/1/17 (actg. Lt.-Col. MGC 21/4/18 to 24/3/19).

Tank Corps 1/4/22 to 21/8/23; temp. Maj. Tank Corps 26/8/22 to 21/8/23.

Royal Tank Corps, Capt. 22/8/23 (temp. Maj. 22/8/23 to 31/12/23).

Maj. 21/1/28.

William was four times mentioned in despatches, was awarded the Order of the Nile (4th Class) (Egypt) (9/11/1918) and the D.S.O. in the New Year Honours List 1919.

He retired from the Army in March 1932, but was employed as the Chief Recruiting Officer for the London Division during World War II.

With regard to personal details, William married Amy Alice Louisa Sumner in 1908. They had one son, Cecil Donald. Major Cecil Gray was awarded the Military Cross in 1944 whilst serving with the Highland Light Infantry.

William died on 17 December 1949, aged sixty-five years.

I also have William’s family details extracted from the 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census returns (which you probably already have). They give a good picture of the family background, siblings etc., so please let me know if you’d like me to post this information or if you’d rather I e-mailed it to you.

Hope this helps with your research.

V.

[Guest worthy_m]

Well, I'm not too sure on etiquette in terms of bringing up this old thread, but as with the previous poster, Dennis N, I stumbled upon this thread and it made me want to join up!

I am fascinated, and also very pleased, to find that there are still people dedicated to keeping the memory of these young men and boys alive.

My own family relation is my Great Uncle on my father's side, and thanks to this site I was able to confirm that he died in action (I'm not sure who recommended the "Soldiers Died" site, but it gave me that little bit more information that I didn't have previously). I have also since downloaded the 2/ Rifle Brigade war diary which is available through the National Archives website for the relevant period. Not a huge amount of detail, but it does give me some idea of what these people were going through.

So, my relative is as follows:

Frank Worthy

Regiment, Corps etc

Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own)

Battalion/etc

2nd Battalion.

Surname

Worthy

Christian Name

Frank

Initials

F

Born

Rotherhithe, Kent

Enlisted

Watford, Herts

Residence

Watford

Rank

RIFLEMAN

Number

5484

Died Date

09/05/1915

Died How

Killed in action

Theatre of War

France & Flanders

Just to add to this, as much as I know - he was born in 1897, so he would have been barely 18, possibly still even 17, when he died.

What I would be hugely interested in further to this, is any photographs of the era, and also any further information regarding this battalion and obviously this battle in particular. I intend next year to visit the area, and also Ploegsteert memorial where he is commemorated, so all information would be gladly received.

[Guest pdgutteridge]

I have just stumbled across this site and am amazed that I have hit upon the information that has eluded me , hitherto . Thanks to Victoria , I actually now know what happened , regarding the battle in which my grandfather-in-law was killed . For the record , the soldier's details are as follows :

Rifleman Francis John Cook

2nd Bt. Rifle Brigade

Service No. G/7360

[/ Date of Death : 9 May 1915

Is there any info' out there pertaining to Francis ? Thanks .

Peter .

[MBrockway]

Pals,

Another wonderful thread!

I have posted a map of the area of this battle in another Topic about a 2/KRRC rifleman who fell in the southern attack: Battle of Aubers Ridge, May 1915 - general features. It might be useful to help people understand the geography of the battle.

The northern attack Start Line is the area in purple. Apologies that the edge of the base map I used is not slightly further north to show 2/RB's trenches a little more generously

Cheers,

Mark

[edd511]

Regarding 2RB:

I found the discussion on the Battle of Aubers Ridge, 9th May 1915 particlarly interesting as two of the brothers KIA there, George and Herbert Wimble Z2963 and Z2964, were extended family relatives. I am currently attempting to discover more about their lives. Other than being mentioned on the Ploegsteert Memorial to the Missing, I know very little of them.

However, coincidentally, My wife's Grandfather, Frederick Martin, was also in 2RB. D.O.W. 21st October 1915 at 26th Field ambulance and buried at the Canadian cemetary Sailly sur La Lys. I have been attempting to find more on his history also, particularly where the battalion was located when he recieved wounds. I have a note which says 26th Field ambulance was approximately five miles behind the lines in October 1915 (which seems a considerable distance), and had a unit dealing paticularly with chest and stomach wounds, although I doubt this was unusual all things considered.

We visit them every so often when in the area, and can't help but be overwhelmed every single time by the site of the graves of all these lads in all of the beautifully tended British cemetaries. My hat's off to the WGC and volunteers for all their work in keeping them up to scratch, I think they all deserve a medal for their work.

There are two more from the Wimble family, inscribed on the Menin Gate Memorial to the missing:

Herbert Wimble, London Rgt/London RB. Corporal. Died: 03 05 1915.

Arthur Wimble, Pvt. No.24960. E Surrey Rgt. Died: 13 06 1917.

But I'll research them after I have dertails for the above members of 2RB finalized.

Would anybody be able to help with further information ?

Greatful thanks.

Ed Wimble

[Brian in France]

.......Sergeant Starr and Riflemen Denton, Jones, Watkinson and Windebank were all awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. Their supply of bombs almost exhausted, Rifleman Denton supplemented the supply by collecting bombs in the open from the wounded, dead and dying.

Rifleman Windebank took the first message back from the captured trench under heavy rifle and machine-gun fire. He returned later and was of great assistance with the captured machine-gun and in collecting German bombs in the trench for use against the enemy.

Rifleman Jones carried a message from the enemy trench back to the British lines, crossing bullet-swept ground. He succeeded in delivering his message, despite being wounded not once, but three times.

Sergeant Starr manned his machine-gun gallantly for several hours until the rest of his detachment were either wounded or dead. He was finally captured by the enemy, but managed to escape, being wounded in his desperate dash for the British lines.

Rifleman Watkinson caught three German bombs in the air and threw them back at the enemy; the fourth exploded, taking with it his hand.

I

I have just found this Forum and thread whilst looking for Les rouges bancs and references to my Grandfather, Rifleman John Watkinson.

I knew of his exploits of throwing back grenades from my father, but all I knew was that it had been featured in a paper or weekly journal and that it was also featured in a book called "Deeds that thrilled an Empire" I knew very little about where or when it occurred, save it was at a place called rouges bancs.

I never knew him as he died 25 years or so before I was born I know he was a regular soldier and continued in the army after the war despite losing part of his hand, he had four children, the eldest son John was my father and he also went into the army in 1939 in the Royal Norfolk's and fought in Burma where he mentioned in dispatches during the battle of Kohima. I now live in France but a long way from the Pas de calais, however my twin brother is visiting the area again next week and with the help of this thread we now know where to go to see the location of this tragic loss of life.

[stiletto_33853]

Welcome Brian,

Very glad that you joined the thread and pleased to hear about your relative and that he is not forgotten. It is intended that we hold another ceremony this year to commemorate the men of the 2nd RB and their actions, I am sure Victoria will be along shortly to welcome you also.

Andy

[Neil Mackenzie]

The number of people attracted to the Forum but this short(ish) thread is fantastic - welcome all!

Neil

[herbie4798]

lovely to see. great photos andy, thanks for sharing to us all.

james

[stiletto_33853]

Neil,

It is fantastic the amount of people that have joined the forum due to this thread and a pleasure to see.

James, you are welcome, it is high time that these men were commemorated.

Andy

[herbie4798]

i agree andy. its great to see days like this. if only it happend more.

james

[Victoria Burbidge]

I have just found this Forum and thread whilst looking for Les rouges bancs and references to my Grandfather, Rifleman John Watkinson.

Brian,

Welcome to the Forum and, in particular, to this thread. Your grandfather, as you can tell from my speech of last May, was one of my “special” men. It is impossible to imagine the courage which it must have taken to catch those bombs. Something tells me that if I trawl through enough copies of the pre-war Rifle Brigade Chronicles, I may find his name mentioned as a pretty decent fielder!

I currently have little information on John Watkinson, but my research is growing all the time. I have already been in contact with Marianna, Peter and Ed regarding their respective relatives and have been able to pull together some information which I shall be posting here in a short while. I have also written an account of the 2/RB action which I will send to all of you, plus some maps. They should help your brother to pinpoint where it all happened.

Andy has stolen my thunder somewhat by announcing this year’s 9th May commemoration. The service will go ahead, despite some details which still remain to be “ironed out”. Over the course of the last eight months or so, I have been very heavily involved in another Fromelles-related project which has taken up almost all of my time, but I have just completed the most recent phase and must now concentrate on our men from 1915.

I think that it’s fair to say that Fromelles has not been the most welcoming of places to the British. It would sometimes seem that our men have been almost erased from memory, but they continue to live on in the hearts of their families. It has been something of an uphill battle to see these wonderful men properly commemorated in the place where it all happened, but thanks to all the relatives who have made contact through the Forum, we are now in a position to claim a place in history (and Fromelles) for our men.

Something in the region of 2,000 men were killed outright on 9th May 1915 during the northern attack of the battle; most within the space of the first few hours. Of this number, a minimum of 1,285 men have no known grave. When you see the small area in which this occurred, you begin to realise the full scale of the losses incurred.

The service on 9th May is open to all, not just those with connections to the 2/RB. I would love to see relatives of men who fought there with other units (and also those who took part in the southern attack). The more pressure we place on the French, the more chance there is of them sitting up and taking notice. I sincerely hope to meet you all there.

More details to follow shortly, plus some information on Riflemen Frank Worthy, Francis Cook, George and Herbert Wimble, Frederick Martin and John Watkinson.

V.

[Desmond7]

I came across this account of the action via Falls history of the R Ir Rifles. Appreciating that the thread has its main point of focus on the RBs (and rightly so!), I thought the account and the strong sentiments in bold at the end of the account would prove useful and reinforce the overall context.

Des

At 2 a.m. on May 9th the Brigade was formed up, the (1st R Ir Rifles) Battalion at La Cordonnerie Farm. At 5 a.m. the first bombardment opened. The wire, at any rate of the front line, appeared to be fairly well cut upon the immediate front, and German retaliation was not at first heavy.

At 5.40 a.m., the hour of the assault, "C "and" D " Companies advanced in lines of platoons at thirty paces. Despite considerable fire from the left flank the men went forward with an irresistible rush, broke through the enemy's battered front-line trenches, and at one point reached the Fromelles road, just where it turns sharply southward toward that village.

Unfortunately the 13th London, attached to the brigade, which had the task of covering the Riflemen's left flank, was unable to advance beyond the mine-craters in the German front line. As a result, directly the artillery fire lifted, German machine guns came into action on the left flank in great numbers. "C" and "D" Companies, following the leading mass in similar formation; met with frightful losses, and made practically no headway.

Two platoons, one on the right under the Commanding Officer, one on the left under the Regimental Sergeant-Major, advanced obliquely to check the cross fire, but both were beaten back with heavy casualties.

The men of the leading companies who had reached the Fromelles road were speedily reduced to a handful. There were Germans not only on their left flank, but between them and the 2nd Rifle Brigade, which had got most of its objective. From the double flanking fire men were dropping at every moment. But they had a task to fulfil, to hold their ground till the battalions for the second objective passed through. With magnificent determination, the little remnant clung to its position. The hour came, but no supports appeared.

Though they did not know it, the 2nd Lincolnshire and 2nd Royal Berkshire found themselves unable to get forward through that storm of fire, few even reaching the German front-line trench. They waited half an hour beyond the appointed time; then decided to fall back to the German front line, as no effective reply could be made to the enemy's fire, and another half-hour would have seen the whole party destroyed. At 7 a.m. what was left of them did so, placing themselves under Lieut.-Colonel Stephens, commanding the Rifle Brigade, which had withdrawn to the same line.

And there all day long they held their ground.

Meanwhile their Brigadier had come up to the breastworks, to find the whole attack at a standstill. All forward movement had ceased soon after 6 a.m. The ground between the lines was swept by fire. The front British line was choked with men in great confusion, successive lines of the supporting battalions having come up with the rear lines of those in the lead, which had failed to advance.

He ordered forward two companies of the Lincolnshire to support the Rifle Brigade. Almost immediately afterwards, in checking a retirement (in which he was successful), he was mortally wounded.

At 2 p.m. an attempt to sap out along the dyke bordering the Sailly - Fromelles road proved unsuccessful; nor could any further aid be given to Colonel Stephens, who with 200 men, which included perhaps 50 of the Royal Irish Rifles, fought it out all that afternoon.

At 7.50 p.m. a heavy German counter-attack was repulsed, captured machine guns being used with great effect. It was hoped to cling on all night, as fresh attacks were to be launched in the morning, but it might not be. The final counter-attack came upon the front and both flanks.

The machine guns fought to the last, causing heavy losses to the Germans, but at 3 a.m. on the 10th they were driven out and withdrew to the British breastwork.

Later that morning the remains of the Battalion withdrew to billets at Bac St. Maur.

The party from the German lines had been brought in by the Regimental Sergeant-Major, there being no officers left. In fact, of the 23 who went into action, every officer was hit, over two-thirds being killed or missing.

The following were killed : - Lieut.-Colonel O. C. Baker, Major A. H. Festing, Captain A. M. O'Sullivan, Lieutenants R. A. Finlay and R. L. Neil, 2nd-Lieutenants C. G. Dixon, A. McLoughlin, A. W. Bourke, 0. B. Macausland, D. Hamilton;

Lieutenants La Nauze and J. S. Martin, 2nd-Lieutenant L. A. Dickenson were reported wounded and missing; 2nd-Lieutenant C. E. Windus missing.

Nine were wounded; Captains C. C. Tee and C. J. Newport, Lieutenants G. Gartlan, G. M. New, R. Soulby, G. A. Coey, H. P. Parkes, A. Hellmers, S. E. B. Millar, of whom the two last died subsequently.

Of the other ranks, 44 were reported killed, 207 wounded, and 203 missing; almost all those in the last category being either killed or wounded.

The total casualties were thus 477 out of about 600 who had gone into the attack; a far heavier proportion than at Neuve Chapelle, when the Battalion had been up to strength, with far less to show for it.

This was, in fact, a far worse action to look back upon than that other. A success such as that gained by the Battalion on the first day at Neuve Chapelle, however heavy the losses, leaves some inspiration of victory to counterbalance the shock which the survivors experience.

But a butchery such as Fromelles, when men are mown down and nothing is won, has no such brighter side. It was a memory entirely evil.

The bravery displayed had been of the very highest standard, and no expressions that can be applied to it would appear other than weak.

To hold the position meant almost certain death, and the position had been held for half an hour after the time fixed for the arrival of the supports. The splendid devotion of the officers is only too apparent.

Neuve Chapelle had not brought the 1st Battalion to the state of the 2nd, when a new one had to be created, with transport and employed as practically the sole basis, but it had not long to wait before it met that fate. It was now no more than a shadow, to be built up anew by new officers. The lessons in the superiority of defence over offence were dearly learned in those early days, for their cost was something which could never be replaced.

[Victoria Burbidge]

This was, in fact, a far worse action to look back upon than that other. A success such as that gained by the Battalion on the first day at Neuve Chapelle, however heavy the losses, leaves some inspiration of victory to counterbalance the shock which the survivors experience.

But a butchery such as Fromelles, when men are mown down and nothing is won, has no such brighter side. It was a memory entirely evil.

Des, thank you for this. It’s an incredible account and it’s good to see another “view” of that terrible day. It’s helped to fill in some gaps.

I said in my speech at last year’s service that the 2/RB had suffered heavy casualties in the March during the Battle of Neuve Chapelle, but that nothing would have prepared it for what it was about to experience at Rouges Bancs. I think that this account sums it up perfectly. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I am currently attempting to calculate accurate figures for the losses sustained by the 1/RIR that day. I’m very keen to obtain photos of any of these men as I wish to use them as part of a small exhibition to be held in the village hall at Fromelles on 9th May (more information to follow in a separate post) and would love to hear from anyone who can help supply me with photos and/or information on any of these men.

V.

[Desmond7]

You're very welcome - as they were part of the same Bde for so long I can also supply similar 'tie-in' accounts which may aid your overall picture. I will consult Jimmy Taylor's book tomorrow for the full list for the relevant period for this thread.

On the case to see if I have any locals there!

Des

[Victoria Burbidge]

On the case to see if I have any locals there!

Thank you.

I have two “Ballymena Boys”:

Rfn. Thomas McMeekin (4012)

Born: Ballymena. Enlisted: Belfast.

Rfn. James Nixon (8313)

Born: Ballymena. Enlisted: Ballymena.

I’d love to know if you have anything on either of these men.

V.

[Desmond7]

McMEEKIN, Thomas, 4012, Rifleman, 1st Royal Irish Rifles, was KIA on the 9th May 1915. He was born in Ballymena and enlisted in Belfast. He is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial, Belgium.

NIXON, James, 8313, Rifleman, 1st Royal Irish Rifles, was KIA on the 9th May 1915. Service. He was born in Ballymena. He had been 13 years in forces and had fought at Mons and Neuve Chapelle. His wife lived at 11, Parkhead, Ballymena. He is commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial.

Ballymena Observer, September 1 1916 - OFFICIAL notification has been received by Mrs. Nixon, Parkhead, Ballymena, that her son Rifleman James Nixon, Royal Irish Rifles, was killed in action on 19th May 1915. Rifleman Nixon was 13 years in the army, nine of which he spent on service in India. He was through the memorable retreat from Mons and the battle of Neuve Chapelle.

Note error on paper dates.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Ah Des, you wonderful man. If I PM my e-mail address through to you, would you mind ……… ?

I have posted the details of this year’s service at Fromelles - 9th May 2009.

V.

[Desmond7]

No bovver

[Desmond7]

LANCE Cpl. Thomas Reade, Ballycloughan, son of Mr. James Reade who went to the front with the 1st Btn Royal Irish Rifles has been here for a few days leave after treatment in a hospital for wounds. He was wounded twice, with shrapnel and secondly with a bullet wound in the left shoulder at Fromelles on May 9. Lce. Cpl. Reade has gone to Dublin where he joined the 3rd Btn.

Sorry .. no pic (Ballycloughan is townland near Ballymena)

[Victoria Burbidge]

Des,

Many thanks. Where men survived these actions, information concerning them tends to be elusive, so I’m very grateful for anything at all, without or without picture. I'll start to keep a look out for references to Ballycloughan.

Thanks again.

V.

[Desmond7]

Do you have a McFall KIA with Rifles on that date .. his unit is given as 2nd Btn.

[Victoria Burbidge]

Do you have a McFall KIA with Rifles on that date .. his unit is given as 2nd Btn.

No; not a McFall. There was a James McFall from Ballymena killed on 8th May with the 2nd Bn. He’s commemorated on the Menin Gate. Is this your chap?

V.