colinalsbury Posted 20 May , 2008 Share Posted 20 May , 2008 Just to let folk know that I am currently researching a number of servicemen who were held at Schneidemuhl and Gross Born POW camps in 1917-1918. I am grateful to those who have already shared information - from as far afield as Newfoundland and Australia - and would be glad to know of any others who are aware of these camps and those who were held there as POW's. Colin Alsbury Frome, Somerset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 20 May , 2008 Share Posted 20 May , 2008 Colin, I have checked my list of camps, Cecile's site, the LLT and FO383 and there is no reference to Gross Born. Schneidemühl is easier and I am sure that a search of this forum will reveal some details. There are some published reports of visits by the US representatives in the following; Miscellaneous No 16 (1916) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8235 Miscellaneous No 19 (1915) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8108 Miscellaneous No 26 (1916) Further Correspondence with the United States Ambassador respecting the Treatment of British Prisoners of War and Interned Civilians in Germany; Cd 8297 No26 (1916) contains a report on the food supplied. The prisoners numbered about 2900 of which only 127 were Brits (2nd June 1916) No 19 (1915) contains a full report on the camp. Opened Sep 1914 to hold about 30 000 prisoners. On 14th October there were about 46 000 prisoners on the books of which 40% were not resident in the camp. Brits numbered 312 in the camp and 174 working outside. 200 had been in the camp since Oct 1914 and most of the rest came from Zossen and Altdamn. 21 Brits had died mainly from cholera and typhus. 2 were in the lazarets, one named FOLWELL had lost his reason. The camp was divided into three with 200 Brits in one and about 100 in the other and none in the third. Six men were in jail. No 16 (1916) reports on the trial of eight men namely WILLIAM BODDINGTON, CHARLES LUDLOW, ALFRED WARD, GEORGE BANKS, PAZI GILMO, PHILIP JOHN HARRIES, FREDERICK FOLWELL and JAMES GILMORE A search of FO383 index on line produces lots of information. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 20 May , 2008 Share Posted 20 May , 2008 Hi Colin, Punishment at Schneidemühl in 1916 was fairly harsh and caught the attention of neutral inspects. See McCarthy 'The Prisoner of War in Germany', p.94 and the reports Doug has listed. Many of the Australian prisoners captured in 1917 were listed as being at to Schneidemühl at some time, including my great-grandfather 6777 Pte Oswald McClelland, 13 Bn. Whether or not they were actually at the parent camp is difficult to tell. Many of the prisoners listed as being at Schneidemühl were most probably attached to the camp's satellite arbeitskommandos, however their Red Cross parcels would have been processed through the main camp. There are 55 hits under the search-term 'Schneidemuhl' in the Australian War Memorial collections database, most (if not all) of them prisoner portraits taken in Schneidemühl camp and donated to the AWM by the Secretary of the Australian Red Cross Society, Ms Elizabeth Chomley. Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinalsbury Posted 21 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2008 One interesting background source regarding Schneidemuhl is the diary of Piete Kuhr, later known as Jo Mihaly, who was a young girl in the town through the first world war - English translation by Walter Wright entitled 'There We'll Meet Again' ISBN 0-9532633-0-4. I have a postcard with images of Gross Born which my grandfather brought back with him on repatriation - it was an outcamp of Schneidemuhl and there are references to it in 'British Times', the camp newspaper of Schneidemuhl - the Australian War Memorial hold copies of this. A statement by a POW from Royal Newfoundland Regiment suggests that treatment at Gross Born was better than that at Schneidemuhl itself. Colin Alsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halder Posted 21 May , 2008 Share Posted 21 May , 2008 Gross Born was a fairly smallish exercise area used by the German Army until the mid-1930s. It was subsequently completely redeveloped by the Nazis (they flattened two villages from memory) to create a huge training area and garrison for use by the German Army artillery school, so any POW era images are going to look very different from Wehrmacht/Polish use. The redevelopment was completed about a year before the outbreak of war. Interestingly, it was the jump-off base for Guderian's panzers when they struck into the Polish Corridor in September 1939. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinalsbury Posted 21 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2008 Gross Born was a fairly smallish exercise area used by the German Army until the mid-1930s. It was subsequently completely redeveloped by the Nazis (they flattened two villages from memory) to create a huge training area and garrison for use by the German Army artillery school, so any POW era images are going to look very different from Wehrmacht/Polish use. The redevelopment was completed about a year before the outbreak of war. Interestingly, it was the jump-off base for Guderian's panzers when they struck into the Polish Corridor in September 1939. And following Soviet occupation the place remained exclusively militarised until the last Russians left in 1993. The communities there now are 'new towns' in a very real sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgogos Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 I agree with Aaron. My Great Grandfather was a prisoner like Colin's in the Grosborn Camp. From a note book in my possession it would appear that Joseph Babstock was well looked after by the Red Cross Parcels. He tallied them up and begin with regularity after his move from Schneidmuhl to Grossborn. His notebook contains curious passages which I have been trying to understand for years. Which to me suggests that he was subjected to censorship and wanted to keep this notebook, it was one of the few possessions he had from the war. It also contains the names of many fellow prisoners from Ireland, Jersey, France, England, and Australia. This subject is hard to research as there is very little to go on. Though I have been fortunate that I have had access to many accounts of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment especially POWs. They describe many camps and many different conditions. As for conditions being better in Grosborn than Scheidemuhl it would appear by Joes account as well. Joe was an NCO and was not subjected to manual Labour though he mostly suffered from boredom or the odd adventure in scaveging food, he often told of augmenting his cabbage soup and black bread with meat from dead crows or rats. I have accounts from Memoirs of survivimg POW Privates that suggest that they had a tougher time of it, ending up in mines, railways, or working under fire of german artillery. But the notebook has a hurried brief history of his capture. It is known that the guards at Scheidemuhl often loaded up prisoners into empty box cars to move them to outlying camps like Grosborn, and tell them that they were going to punishment camps or even death, (from Joes Notebook I beleive he experiences this for he was one of five men who confronted the Scheidemuhl Commandant about their treatment as NCOs. They especiallly abhored doing fatigues for the Russian Soldiers, they barely tollerated their own or the French.) I beleive he wrote it so that if the notebook somehow survived the war, his family would know what had happened to him. It was quickly scribbled unlike what was written in it later, which was more descriptive, and written with a MUCH neater pen. It also describes a certain comaraderie with his fellow prisoners and more than a half dozen photos survived from the camp. I am not so sure that Scheidemuhl was as bad as it was in 1917 - 18 as it was thru 1914 - 16. But it appears that Joe suffered quite a bit (of what exactly I do not know) at either Minden or Scheidemuhl as 2 of his accounts contradict each other. I have not figured out why? One Newfoundland POW worked in the Schneidemuhl Camp Post Office, and complained little (he was a Sargeant), and may have also been another reason why parcels seemed to reach their intended recipient quite regularly. Money was a different matter. Joe had money go missing and had his payments stopped from the War Office. He also speaks of some kindness about the Germans as well, or at least the old German Guards, from his stories I get the feeling that he pitied them for he ate better than they. Remember, he is eating crows and rats. And he still spoke of great hunger as did most of the Newfoundlanders, despite getting parcels almost twice a month. They also said the Russians were treated worse than dogs, and often the Newfoundlanders would turn over their German Rations when the Red Cross Parcels would arrive. Though Grosborn may have been obliterated by subsequent military use there still appears to be evidence left behind in the Main Camp, as even to day it lies on the outskirts of Pila. If any one is interested I might transcribe the Names in the Notebook in another thread. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 I agree with Aaron Thank you Frank, not too many people do I'd be interested to see what Australian POWs are mentioned in your grandfather's diary. Cant be too many I'd imagine, although many of the un-wounded Australian prisoners captured at Bullecourt in 1917 were interned at Schneidemühl at some point. Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgogos Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 Thank you Frank, not too many people do I'd be interested to see what Australian POWs are mentioned in your grandfather's diary. Cant be too many I'd imagine, although many of the un-wounded Australian prisoners captured at Bullecourt in 1917 were interned at Schneidemühl at some point. Cheers, Aaron This name appears for Australia, Mr. K.B. Chaffey Cakham(?) Street baggabre, N.S.W Australia Colin I just noticed that three of the names in the notebook contain names from Durham. Would they be of any use to you? Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinalsbury Posted 29 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2008 This name appears for Australia, Mr. K.B. Chaffey Cakham(?) Street baggabre, N.S.W Australia Colin I just noticed that three of the names in the notebook contain names from Durham. Would they be of any use to you? Frank Indeed they would ... with my grandfather's service record not surviving the only way to tell the story is to research the whole cohort of each group he was part of - Derbyshire Yeomanry, 14th Durham Light Infantry, POW's at Minden - Schneidemuhl & Gross Born... I did find one letter from my grandfather in another servicemans service record: the infantry records people at York had written to my grandfather to confirm the other soldier's fate... so things do turn up in unanticipated places. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hett65 Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 Just to let folk know that I am currently researching a number of servicemen who were held at Schneidemuhl and Gross Born POW camps in 1917-1918. I am grateful to those who have already shared information - from as far afield as Newfoundland and Australia - and would be glad to know of any others who are aware of these camps and those who were held there as POW's. Colin Alsbury Frome, Somerset Colin Private 6908 Frank Tonks, Scots Guards, 1st Battalion was a POW at Schneidemuhl, he was reported missing on 11.11.1914 and late found to be a POW at the above camp. He was a Hartlepool policeman and sent a card to his colleagues to say that there were several other ex constables as POW's at the camp. On the card he said he was learning French from a Parisian schoolmaster, and was going to take lessons in German. He survived the camp and returned to England on 2.12.1918. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinalsbury Posted 29 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2008 Colin Private 6908 Frank Tonks, Scots Guards, 1st Battalion was a POW at Schneidemuhl, he was reported missing on 11.11.1914 and late found to be a POW at the above camp. He was a Hartlepool policeman and sent a card to his colleagues to say that there were several other ex constables as POW's at the camp. On the card he said he was learning French from a Parisian schoolmaster, and was going to take lessons in German. He survived the camp and returned to England on 2.12.1918. John Thanks for this. I hope within the next few weeks to put a simple web page up with a summary of info about these camps. There were interesting selections of phrases 'useful to know' in German published in the camp newspaper 'British Times'. Colin Alsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgogos Posted 29 May , 2008 Share Posted 29 May , 2008 Indeed they would ... with my grandfather's service record not surviving the only way to tell the story is to research the whole cohort of each group he was part of - Derbyshire Yeomanry, 14th Durham Light Infantry, POW's at Minden - Schneidemuhl & Gross Born... I did find one letter from my grandfather in another servicemans service record: the infantry records people at York had written to my grandfather to confirm the other soldier's fate... so things do turn up in unanticipated places. Colin Colin, Here are the three names and the addresses the best I could decipher. Steve Brown 3 North Street Mirston (?) Co. Durham S.S. Laiers (?) 40 S(?)ook Street Duristan (?) on Tyne County Durham F (?) March 34 (?) Street Chopwell, Durham. If you find anything on these guys I would like to know, as they would have been his closest friends in the camp. I might be able to match photos with some of them. Do you have dates of his movement from camp to camp? Joe recorded dates in the notebook, I wonder if they moved together. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 2 June , 2008 Share Posted 2 June , 2008 Just a follow-up to an earlier comment I made about Schneidemühl being something of a punishment camp. On the weekend I read an account of an Australian prisoner who was working on an arbeitskommando out from the main camp, and he suggested that he spent his captivity in relative freedom working on a local farmer's property. He made good friends with the farmer and his family, and ate the same food as the farmer at the same table. This was is not an uncommon story, as I've found that many farmers in rural Germany who received POW labour treated their prisoners well. Its an interesting contrast to the major theme of doom and gloom which seems to frame our perception of the POW experience. There is that new-ish book 'War Experiences of Rural Germany' by Benjamin Ziemann - I wonder what he says about it? Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgogos Posted 2 June , 2008 Share Posted 2 June , 2008 Just a follow-up to an earlier comment I made about Schneidemühl being something of a punishment camp. I read an account of an Australian prisoner who was working on an arbeitskommando out from the main camp, and he suggested that he spent his captivity in relative freedom working on a local farmer's property. He made good friends with the farmer and his family, and even ate at the same table. Cheers, Aaron Both my Great Grandfather and another Newfoundlander corraborate some kind of threat and harsh treatment while in the larger camp (early 1918) but spoke mostly of poor food and boredom at Grossborn (an Outlying camp). I have read the account of another Newfoundlander attached to a German Farm and spoke of Freedom and even access to the odd Frauline. Something my Great Grandfather dearly missed at Grosborn. An Update to my previous post abouth the Australian In my G-grandfather's notebook. I have done some research and found that his records are complete online at the Australian Archives . his entry should read: K. R. Chaffey Oakham Street Boggabri, NSW Australia There is some confusing still on my part. He enlisted twice. Sent home with a disease and re-enlisted. he has 2 service numbers as he was attached to 2 different Battalions. He was capture at Bailleul (?) April 1917. Many Newfoundlanders were captured during this campaign as well. His name in the documents are Kent Roy Chaffey. In 1914 he was 20 years Old making him Born in 1894. However, on his headstone in the Boggabri Cemetary lists him born around 1897. ALSO, his name on the headstone is Kenneth Roy Chaffey. Even though his military record states that he was a Lance Corporal his headstone states that he was a Private and only lists his second service number, the same number that he was interned as a POW and for which he obtained the rank of L/Corp. And finally, nowhere in his military record does it state that he was interned at Schneidemuhl.The last dated entry for place of Internment was Limburg in January 1918. That may be explained if there were some kind of mass transfer of prisoners to Schneidemuhl from across Germany in February 1918 that is the same time that Joseph Babstock and Walter L. Thistle, both from the Royal Newfoundland Regiment were transferred from Minden and Dulmen respectively and eventually housed together in the same Grosborn Compound after confronting the camp commandant over harsh treatment for NCOs at Schneidemuhl. Can anyone explain anything relating to the above? Thanks Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 2 June , 2008 Share Posted 2 June , 2008 Can anyone explain anything relating to the above? Hi Frank, Without getting too much off topic, Chaffey was captured at Bullecourt on 11 April 1917 alongside 200 other blokes from the 14th Battalion. You might be interested in this file put together by the Red Cross - the statement on the second page is from a fellow who knew Chaffey through his brother. Click here.. NB - Interesting reference to Lt Jacka - he was Australia's first VC recipient of the First World War, and was awarded a MC during the Bullecourt attack on 11 April. So famed was Jacka, the 14th Battalion's unit history is titled "Jacka's Mob". Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinalsbury Posted 3 June , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2008 I have now posted an extract of names found in the Schneidemuhl POW camp newspaper at http://www.alsbury.co.uk/ww1/pila/pila_men.htm Hopefully of interest to some... Colin Alsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sheehan Posted 6 August , 2008 Share Posted 6 August , 2008 Dear Colin Alsbury I was interested to read the list you published on your website of internees of Schneidemuhl. My grandfather (mother's side), Joseph Garvey (born Halifax, West Yorks) was mentioned. He was a private in the 1st Battalion Scots Guards. I am in the possession of memoirs written by him in the early sixties, poignantly just before he died. He tells in the memoirs much about life in the multi-national camp at Schneidemuhl. I would be prepared to exchange stories, information and the like with you about the camp life. My grandfather was interned from November 1914 to August 1918, from capture at Gheluvelt near Ypres to transfer to the officers' camp at Stralsund in Denmark. David Sheehan, Maastricht, Netherlands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendav2001 Posted 8 August , 2008 Share Posted 8 August , 2008 colin northern daily mail west hartlepool wednesday 25 november 1914 a postcard has been received at the hartlepool police station from police constable tonks, a member of the local constabulary who has been at the front with the scots guards. he says he is a prisoner of war at schneidemuhl, and is in good health. monday 02 december 1918 private tonks, of the 2cnd scots guards, formerly a police constable at the hartlepool borough police, arried at leith yesterday. private tonks was taken prisoner at mons in 1914 and has been in germany ever since, having just been released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 8 August , 2008 Share Posted 8 August , 2008 colin northern daily mail west hartlepool wednesday 25 november 1914 a postcard has been received at the hartlepool police station from police constable tonks, a member of the local constabulary who has been at the front with the scots guards. he says he is a prisoner of war at schneidemuhl, and is in good health. monday 02 december 1918 private tonks, of the 2cnd scots guards, formerly a police constable at the hartlepool borough police, arried at leith yesterday. private tonks was taken prisoner at mons in 1914 and has been in germany ever since, having just been released. Gents Very interesting items on POWs and Camps, I am also very interested in POWs ( black watch) and Camps in particular Minden, I was stationed there for 5 years in the 60s and go back most years as I have family there, I have discovered that St George.s Barracks at Mindenheide was where the POW camp was, seemly there is a plaque on the wall stating that a pow camp had been there, I will check out next year when I go across. Any further information on Minden POW Camp would be appreciated. Yours Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purley Posted 13 August , 2008 Share Posted 13 August , 2008 Just to let folk know that I am currently researching a number of servicemen who were held at Schneidemuhl and Gross Born POW camps in 1917-1918. I am grateful to those who have already shared information - from as far afield as Newfoundland and Australia - and would be glad to know of any others who are aware of these camps and those who were held there as POW's. Colin Alsbury Frome, Somerset Colin One of my Royal Berkshiremen was in Schneidemuhl and you can read his story at www.purley.eu/H142P/P354-05.pdf I would certainly be interested in what you find out abou these camps regards john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 30 August , 2008 Share Posted 30 August , 2008 There is 2 Black Watch names on the POW list, Sgt Adams 783 1st Bn was exchanged. 3/1328 Pte Divine H from Dundee who died, there also 1st Bn and buried at Poznan Old Garrison Cemetery, any pals with any information on these two? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sheehan Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 colin northern daily mail west hartlepool wednesday 25 november 1914 a postcard has been received at the hartlepool police station from police constable tonks, a member of the local constabulary who has been at the front with the scots guards. he says he is a prisoner of war at schneidemuhl, and is in good health. monday 02 december 1918 private tonks, of the 2cnd scots guards, formerly a police constable at the hartlepool borough police, arried at leith yesterday. private tonks was taken prisoner at mons in 1914 and has been in germany ever since, having just been released. Comment to the above: my grandfather, Joseph Garvey, 1st Scots Guards, relates in his memoirs that there was a private Tonks in the group of prisoners together with whom he was transported from Courtrai in Belgium to Schneidemuhl (Pila, then East Prussia). This Private Tonks was also something of a sportsman, since he took part in a(n international!) rugby match in which my grandfather also played, between the British and the French prisoners at Schneidemuhl. I may add that the British side won 8-0, despite the fact that the French side had Mourland as wing three-quarter (Mourland had won the Olympic gold for the 200 metres at the Stockholm Olympics in 1912!) My grandfather's last action was in the First Battle of Ypres on the 30th October 1914, when he was taken prisoner near the village of Gheluveld, on the Menin road east of Ypres. Dave Sheehan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sheehan Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 I have now posted an extract of names found in the Schneidemuhl POW camp newspaper at http://www.alsbury.co.uk/ww1/pila/pila_men.htm Hopefully of interest to some... Colin Alsbury Long time since I last commented on this posting of yours on the www. I noticed a name Jim Wiltshire on the list, without mention of rank or service unit. This Jim is mentioned a number of times by my grandfather Joe Garvey as a very good friend. They were sent together as interpreters to the officers' camp at Daenholm on the German Baltic coast in August 1918. Do you know anything else about Wiltshire? Dave Sheehan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sheehan Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 Dear Aaron and Frank As I am fortunately in the possession of a set of memoirs written by my maternal grandfather Joseph (Joe) Garvey, private in the 1st Scots Guards, I can throw some light on the life at Schneidemuhl camp, at least during my grandfather's long stay, from November 1914 (captured during the First Battle of Ypres) to August 1918, when he was transferred as interpreter to Danholm Island on the German Baltic coast. My grandfather showed a wonderful propensity for learning languages. He had friends among the Russians (Joseph Fureman and Charlie Sturmock, who nursed him back to health from a bout of typhus in the winter of '14/'15), the Frenchmen (Ernest Leigeois and Jean Coudain, both captured at Verdun with whom he often shared a glass of wine, if we may believe the stories he tells) and even with a German Sergeant Major (Feldwebel) Kunze, who appreciated my grandfather's abilities as an interpreter. My grandfather is able to balance the many negative experiences of camp life, apart from almost dying of typhus and having to live through the first winter of confinement in caves at the camp which were no more than primitive holes dug by the previous Russian 'tenants', with positive ones and can find positive things to say about his German captors and his bosses on the various Arbeitskommandos that he was sent on. All this despite being beaten badly for disarming and beating up a heavy-handed German sentry, who almost murdered him with a Mauser for his trouble. He was saved by a cigarette case in his breast pocket which took the full force of a bullet fired at point blank range. I admire his ability to see the best in many if not all men. It cannot have been easy in the circumstances. Hope this helps to give a fuller picture of what life at Schneidemuhl was like. If you want to know more I would be pleased to oblige. Dave S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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