Martin K Posted 17 May , 2008 Share Posted 17 May , 2008 George Kelland of Powderham, Devon joined the Coldstream Guards on 9th September 1914 and went out to France with the 2nd Battalion on 9th Feb 1915. He served with the 2nd until he was transferred to the 5th (Reserve) Battalion on 19th July 1917. His service record does not mention wounds and his record states that he returned to England on 19th September 1917 before being discharged as unfit for further military service on 27th December 1917. Tuberculosis was the official reason for his discharge attributed to conditions on active service. However the family story is that we was seriously wounded in France and lay out in the open for a week in mud and blood before being found and brought in. On 13th June 2nd BTN went into trenches north of Ypres on the west bank of the Ypres-Nieuport canal at Boesinghe. It was probably in this area and probably around this time that George was seriously wounded. The question is: are there any other records such as made by a CCS or hospital that would fill in the gaps? Does anyone have experience of researching these sorts or records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 welcome to the forum - Ive looked for a few papers in my time and there is often discrepancies where did the service papers you read come from ? i ask as this can make a difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 his medal card for BWM / Victory shows "Kalland" and the 1914/15 shows "kelland" The Silver War Badge he is entitled to is 272198 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 18 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2008 welcome to the forum - Ive looked for a few papers in my time and there is often discrepancies where did the service papers you read come from ? i ask as this can make a difference Thank you Coldstreamer: The service record came from the Coldstream Guards HQ in Birdcage walk as did a pension sheet explaining reason for discharge plus amount of pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 18 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2008 his medal card for BWM / Victory shows "Kalland" and the 1914/15 shows "kelland" The Silver War Badge he is entitled to is 272198 Thank you. He died of TB in 1934 and I do not know what happened to his medals. I have his cap badge though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 18 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2008 the 23rd June - can you confirm which year please Coldstreamer: he was transferred from 2nd Btn to the 5th (Reserve) Battalion on 19th July 1917 and Ross's history of the Coldstream gives the 2nd Btn as moving into trenches on the Ypres-Nieuport Canal on 13th June 1917 in preparation for Passchendaele. I have assumed that George was transferred to the 5th soon after being wounded to allow for a replacement so that full strength could be maintained in the Btn headcount but this could be wrong. Do you know how the 5th Btn was composed and the policies for transfer to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mts Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 Hi Martin Here's his Mic Maybe the SWB roll could tell you about his wounds. Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 The SWB roll adds nothing extra Ive often seen the records at RHQ not say wounds when I know they received them Ross' history (I find) is often hard to determine dates- the war diary differs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 18 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2008 Hi Martin Here's his Mic Maybe the SWB roll could tell you about his wounds. Mel Thanks Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 18 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2008 . Coldstreamer: Thanks. I appreciate your interest. If I am to try to research George through the casualty records I think I need to know where he was when injured-because the various CCS / hospitals covered specific geographical areas at specific periods. The only way I can do this is to assume he was injured just before his transfer to the 5th Btn on 19/7/1917. With your access to the 2nd Btn diaries could you tell me where they were just before 19/7/1917 please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 PM me your email address and Ill send the war diary extract for you there is another source I can check next time I go to London (a few weeks I hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 18 May , 2008 Share Posted 18 May , 2008 You will probably need to broaden your search dates a bit because a transfer to a Reserve battalion was usually after discharge from hospital. An example (actual example from a different regiment, using Coldstream battalions instead of the actual ones) Unit on records as with in {brackets}. Wounded (in the trenches), 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to Field Ambulance, 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to Casualty Clearing Station, 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to General Hospital in France (near one of the ports), 25-8-1918. {2nd Battalion} Posted to Regimental Depot, 27-8-1918. {Depot} Evacuated to England aboard Hospital Ship, 27-8-1918. {Depot} Admitted to War Hospital in England, 27-8-1918 to 28-9-1918. {Depot} Hospital discharge Furlough to home address, 29-9-1918 to 4-10-1918 {Depot - though Furlough permission form would record his active service battalion, e.g. 2nd} Posted to Command Depot for recuperation, 5-10-1918 to 12-11-1918. {Depot} Posted to Reserve Battalion, 13-11-1918 {5th Battalion} As you can see that is a few months delay before posting to the Reserve battalion, and this was the normal procedure. It could of course be a shorter or longer period at any stage of the recovery process. I hope this helps, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin K Posted 19 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2008 You will probably need to broaden your search dates a bit because a transfer to a Reserve battalion was usually after discharge from hospital. An example (actual example from a different regiment, using Coldstream battalions instead of the actual ones) Unit on records as with in {brackets}. Wounded (in the trenches), 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to Field Ambulance, 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to Casualty Clearing Station, 24-8-1918. {2nd Battalion.} Admitted to General Hospital in France (near one of the ports), 25-8-1918. {2nd Battalion} Posted to Regimental Depot, 27-8-1918. {Depot} Evacuated to England aboard Hospital Ship, 27-8-1918. {Depot} Admitted to War Hospital in England, 27-8-1918 to 28-9-1918. {Depot} Hospital discharge Furlough to home address, 29-9-1918 to 4-10-1918 {Depot - though Furlough permission form would record his active service battalion, e.g. 2nd} Posted to Command Depot for recuperation, 5-10-1918 to 12-11-1918. {Depot} Posted to Reserve Battalion, 13-11-1918 {5th Battalion} As you can see that is a few months delay before posting to the Reserve battalion, and this was the normal procedure. It could of course be a shorter or longer period at any stage of the recovery process. I hope this helps, Steve. Steve, Many thanks. George Kelland's record states: Home service 9/9/1914-8/2/1915 Posted 2nd Btn in BEF France 9/2/1915. BEF France 9/2/1915-18/7/1917 Posted 5th Btn 19/7/1917 Home 19/7/1917-27/12/1917 then discharged. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 19 May , 2008 Share Posted 19 May , 2008 That would seem to suggest something other than a "straightforward" wounding to me, in that case, unless the Guards recording varied considerably from the other Infantry regiments. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 19 May , 2008 Share Posted 19 May , 2008 I have noticed that injuries (other than wounds) are often not on guards service papers so stebie is spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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