Pat Twomey Posted 24 April , 2008 Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Hi All, I have in my possession a French two franc silver coin, the reverse has been sanded down and the following words inscribed on it. CPL. C.E. L.C. Around the outside of the coin the words HS. MGC. 2685 GROUTAGE Two holes have been drilled in the coin and it looks like it was worn as some sort of identifying medallion. Has anyone seen anything like this before or heard of a soldier called Groutage? According to the CWGC there were two soldiers with that surname that were kia but none from any Machine Gun Corp (if that is what MGC stands for). Hopefully someone will be able to shed some more light on this. Thank you Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 24 April , 2008 Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Pat The medal index cards at the National Archive show 2685 Cpl Leonard C Grouting, Tank Corps who was later commissioned 2 Lt in the same corps. HS stands for Heavy Section, Machine Gun Corps, the original name for the Tank Corps. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 24 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Pat The medal index cards at the National Archive show 2685 Cpl Leonard C Grouting, Tank Corps who was later commissioned 2 Lt in the same corps. HS stands for Heavy Section, Machine Gun Corps, the original name for the Tank Corps. TR Thanks Terry for the prompt reply I have downloaded the medal rolls but cannot upload them here as the file is too big. He was awarded the Victory and British medals but not the Star. Does this mean that he came late into the war? Also on the roll is d/25-5-25 does this mean he was in the army until 1925? Thanks Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 24 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2008 I have also found online, in something called the 'blacksheep index', his name and 'MC award in 1918'. I'm not sure what this means. Can anyone tell me how to find out anything else about this soldier? Thanks Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 24 April , 2008 Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Pat His citation is in the London Gazette 7.11.1918 page 13155: T. /2nd Lt. Leonard Charles Groutage, Tank Corps. For conspicuous gallantry. When his Tank received a direct hit from an anti-Tank gun, which iammed the door, he climbed out through the roof with his guns and came into action on the ground under heavy fire. His example had a very inspiriting effect on his men. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 24 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2008 I have just found the following citation in the London Gazette 1919. "T. /2nd Lt. Leonard Charles Groutage, Tank Corps. For conspicuous gallantry. When his Tank received a direct hit from an anti-Tank gun, which iammed the door, he climbed out through the roof with his guns and came into action on the ground under heavy fire. His example had a very inspiring effect on his men." Thanks again Terry for the initial prompt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 24 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2008 Thanks Terry you beat me by a couple of minutes! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer Posted 24 April , 2008 Share Posted 24 April , 2008 To answer other of your questions ... * Temp. 2nd Lt L. C. Groutage is promoted temp. Lieutenant, with effect from 27 Jan. 1919 (SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE (12 MARCH, 1919), p. 3373). * Temp Lt L. C. Groutage relinquishes his commission "on completion of service," with effect from 1 Sept. 1921, and retains the rank of Lieutenant (SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE (5 DECEMBER, 1921) p. 9877.) His birth was registered in the Aston (Warwickshire) Registration District in the quarter ended December 1896. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 25 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Thanks for the information 'Archer'. I'm kinda new at this so does the "on completion of service" mean that he left the army in 1921 or could it be that he signed up again if he retained the rank of Lt.? All this information from a 2f coin!! Best Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archer Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 As I understand it, Corporal Pat, he had met the terms of his contract or engagement with the Army and was released. I couldn't find any trace of him returning to the Army. (I know you were interested in the year 1925, so I checked up to the Second World War.) I haven't seen his Medal Index Card - but I think that it means the medals were sent (despatched) to him on 25 May 1925. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Pat - that is a super find; he was one of the first tank crewmen - http://firsttankcrews.webs.com/ccompanycrewmenal.htm I would guess his officers file is still at Kew but I have not have the chance to get to it (yet) Stephen Would have replied earlier but have been in a six hour meeting and have onyl just spotted your post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Probably: WO 339/88168 GROUTAGE L [1914-1922] Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 thank you Master Stephen PS Pat - can you give me the black sheep link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 25 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Thanks Stephen, Steve and 'archer' for your expert information on the medallion. The way the letters have been pressed onto the coin leads me to believe that he had access to some sort of engineering tools to carry out the procedure. I will attempt to photograph the coin over the weekend and put it on the forum. I have also tried to contact a Groutage in London to see if there is a connection. I have had the coin in my possession for a long long time but have only recently taken up an interest in WW1 and only more recently again thought that this coin may be somehow connected to the Great War. What a surprise when I discovered (through all your help) the story behind it. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Thanks Pat, certainly the early tankmen had a number of motor cycle mechanics as well as enthusiasts amongst their ranks; they would have had ready access to engineering tools as well. Can I ask how you came by the coin, it might give me a clue about where Groutage settled. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 25 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Stephen, My www skills are not the best but if you google groutage mc award 1919 you will be sent to the following link and the relevant pdf file contains the record. http://www.blacksheepindex.co.uk/GREATWAR%20Gos-Gyl.pdf Best Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 25 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2008 As a schoolboy (a very long time ago) I collected coins and by trading with friends the coin somehow came into my possession. I live in southern Ireland (Cork area) but I'm not too sure how the coin travelled here. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 To quote Alice "Curiouser and curiouser"; a little more grist to the mill then On..... on...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 26 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2008 I promised to put a photograph of the coin/medallion on this thread but when I try I get the message "upload failed. The file was larger than the available space." Is there a way around this? Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 26 April , 2008 Share Posted 26 April , 2008 Try this as a way ahead. first open the picture using Microsodt Paint Then click the "image" tab on the tab bar and select "stretch / skew" on the drop down menu Then insert 5O in both the horizontal and vertical stretch box. Then press ok Then save the picture Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 26 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 26 April , 2008 Share Posted 26 April , 2008 Brilliant photo - can we see the obverse? Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 26 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Twomey Posted 26 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 26 April , 2008 Thanks Stephen for the technical info - never would have sorted it without you. You're right it does get 'curioser' and 'curioser'. I decided to do a trawl of Irish newspapers as it was in Cork that I first got the coin and bingo!! in the Irish Independent dated Aug 16 1929 a Mrs Groutage won a prize for her dog in a local dog show. Then on June 21 1929 a Mrs L Groutage of Blackrock (about 4 miles from my old school) again won a prize at another dog show. The next entry was on March 16 1933 in the section of the paper that lists upcoming court sessions and Court 4 was hearing Bullarch Ignition Co. v Groutage. Then unbelieveably and very sadly on June 9 1933 a news story appeared under the heading Death by Misadventure This was returned in Cork at the inquest of Capt. Leonard C Groutage M.C.(38) who was found in a dying condition at his residence South Terrace on Sunday. According to the testimony he was under medical treatment and using a narcotic prescribed drug and seemed to have taken an overdose. I'm still shocked after only just uncovering this sad end to such a brave soldier. Best Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 27 April , 2008 Share Posted 27 April , 2008 Pat - thank you for the picture and also for finding the news of his end. Sad is indeed the best way to describe the death, misadventure is a remarkable legal phrase which seems to have so many meanings. Daft question but there isn't an obit published is there. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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