John G Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 Hi to all, I have found a new memorial to work on from a local Grammar School. It has only 35 names but as there are no valid newspaper reports, and the school has no data about the lads or the plaque, I have been doing some basic groundwork, and now I need the forum's assistance on the following incident and man Lieutenant ALW Norman killed 7.7.17 on HMS Newmarket Thanks JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 JPG, The correct date of death would be July 17, 1917. For more about your man, see (if you haven't already): http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=3041435 HMS Newmarket was a 833 grt steamer built in 1907 by Earle’s SB. & Eng. Co., Ltd., Hull for the Great Eastern Railway Company, Harwich. She was requisitioned by the Royal Navy for use a minesweeper in October 1914. Her loss did not come while minesweeping though. On July 17, 1917, the German submarine UC 38 torpedoed and sank her south of Nikaria Island in the Aegeean Sea (37°17'N, 26°15'E). The loss of life was heavy there were only three survivors from a crew of 73. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messina1915 Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 Hi JPG NAVAL-HISTORY.NET lists 63 men who died when HMS Newmarket was lost. You may want to note that it gives the date as 17 July, not 7 July. His CWGC record also gives the date of death as 17 July and gives his age (27), his parents' names and address, as well as stating that he also served in France with the 10th Royal Fusiliers. Cheers, Carole. Oops, Michael posted while I was looking at the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 His MIC, at least an address, Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 JPG, your mans Admiralty death record: NORMAN, AUBREY L.W., TY/S/LT, RNR, H.M. Screw minesweeper (hired) NEWMARKET, 17-Jul-17, SHIP LOSS. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 14 May , 2008 Share Posted 14 May , 2008 David, Wasn't Newmarket a Commissioned warship 'HMS Newmarket' I have never come across 'HM Screw Minesweeper' HMPS HM Paddle Minesweeper yes, a different'class' of vessel. Sorry to be pedantic but a ship is what it is at its commissioning ceremony. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John G Posted 15 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2008 To all of you, thanks very much for assistance. That is one more complete on the list JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spithead Posted 15 May , 2008 Share Posted 15 May , 2008 Although Newmarket was a screw steamer hired and converted for minesweeping operations, its seems unlikely she would have been commissioned into the RN. Her prefix would in that case have been HM Minesweeper Newmarket. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 15 May , 2008 Share Posted 15 May , 2008 Charles, good discussion point. My description comes from Dittmar & Colledge which divides Minesweepers into 5 groups by type, Torpedo Gunboat, Screw, Paddle, Hunt (early & late) and Tunnel. All the Screw Minesweepers listed were hired, which led me to His Majesties Screw Minesweeper (hired) NEWMARKET. Am I correct in interpreting your comment to mean that all commissioned ships are known simply as HMS irrespective of type? If so, this surely means that when we refer to Trawlers of the A/P we should use HMS instead of the more commonly used HMT. Look forward to your comments. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 15 May , 2008 Share Posted 15 May , 2008 David, Ship's got commissioned into a class, it was all to do with the process of naval discipline, HMT was a class of commission as most men would be signed on by the T124 system of recruitment same with HMD, HMY and HMPM. HMS Newmarket had a Commisioned Officer in command and a crew of 73 no doubt the Ships Company was a mis - mash of RN, RNR, RNVR and MMR, a Captain required the commision to discipline his crew, fly the White Ensign, to give and recieve salutes, to have the authority to police the seas and demand repect from ships not in commision IE dip their ensign. I have not come across HM Battleship, HM Destroyer or HM Minesweeper. You would have HMS unless the Commisioning Warrant stated otherwise, not an easy task to find out in some cases Im sure. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 16 May , 2008 Share Posted 16 May , 2008 OK Charles, I understand your arguement for the correct and formal reference to HMS XXXXXX. I have taken the approach of using a reference of HM Battleship, HM Destroyer or HM Minesweeper XXXXXX etc as a way of clarifying the type in the reference. I accept it is not strictly correct, but it does indicate the the vessel being referred to without having to add it after the name, or simply stating HMS XXXXXX and leaving the reader to discover the type (refence books not always to hand). I know that it probably offends you, being an old salt, but I find it works for me. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 16 May , 2008 Share Posted 16 May , 2008 David, Certainly doesn't offend me, but from a historic perspective, I think being as accurate as the information allows far better than changing it for ease of understanding. Why not for instance 'HMS Friendship Minsweeper (Lend - Lease)'. I feel its a bit like Who's Who saying Sir Bobby (the one who won a 1966 world cup winners medal) Charlton. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 August , 2016 Share Posted 17 August , 2016 My great grandfather, Sub Lt WH Chittock Chief Engineer RNR was lost on HMS Newmarket, one of the 70 fatalities. He and the others are remembered on the war memorial at Portsmouth. I also have a photograph of him, the Capt. and fellow officers in dress uniform on deck. Prior to its sinking HMS Newmarket had seen active service in the unsuccessful breaching of the Dardanelle straits campaign pand subsequently at Gallipoli where she helped evacuate troops off the peninsula acting then as part hospital ship with an Australian medical corps aboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domhnall Posted 24 August , 2016 Share Posted 24 August , 2016 Two distant relatives of mine, Donald Maciver and Norman Maciver, were lost when HMS Newmarket was hit on 17th July 1917. I was wondering if there are any photographs of the vessel anywhere, been trying for ages to find one. Does the photograph you have show anything of the vessel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 25 August , 2016 Share Posted 25 August , 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domhnall Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 Merchant Old Salt I did not really expect to get hold of a photograph at all. To receive it so soon leaves me almost speechless. I thank you sincerely. I am trying to put together a sort of memorial to casualties of the Great War from my native village in Scotland. There were 5 vessels that I could not trace a photograph for: HMS Newmarket - which you have now so kindly provided. The Minesweeper "Izaac Walton" Hit during an attack on the Dardanelles, August 13th 1915. The Admiralty Collier "Heatherside" sunk by German Submarine U-93 in the Bay of Biscay, August 25th 1917 The Steamship "SS Anhui" operating in the Eastern Mediterranean May/June 1918. The Tanker "Luz Blanco" torpedoed and sunk off Nova Scotia by German Submarine U-156, August 5th 1918. If it wouldn't be too presumptuous, any help with those would be welcomed and appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 (edited) A couple of points about the death in the hired trawler IZAAK WALTON (also ISAAC and IZAK in some records) of Seaman John MacKenzie 6641.A RNR. This minesweeping trawler was not "Hit during an attack on the Dardanelles, August 13th 1915" because she did not go to the Aegean/Dardanelles and Seaman MacKenzie died of drowning, not in action. From 7 November 1914 to 26 April 1917 IZAAC WALTON operated in the Firth of Forth, based on parent ships HMS COLUMBINE (Rosyth) and, from 1 June 1916, HMS GUNNER (Granton) Edited 26 August , 2016 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domhnall Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 Thank you for that clarification Horatio. I took the details I used from the entry for 13th August 1915 under the title " DARDANELLES NAVAL ATTACK" in the publication " World War 1 - Casualty Lists of the Royal Navy and Dominion Navies" I must have misinterpreted the entry. This research business is harder than I thought it would be, But I'm learning. Thanks again for putting me right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 26 August , 2016 Share Posted 26 August , 2016 An understandable mistake. The book is on-line here:- http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1915-08Aug.htm The 'Dardanelles' entry is just for the midshipman wounded on 18 March. The following line closes off that Dardanelles entry (cf the following 'Persian Gulf' entries). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 1 October , 2018 Share Posted 1 October , 2018 On 25/08/2016 at 22:46, MerchantOldSalt said: Delighted to see pic of HM S Newmarket, my Grandfathers ship. Stoker Frank Castleman RNR lost on July 17 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted 1 April , 2021 Share Posted 1 April , 2021 This has been interesting to read about the Newmarket as I have a crewman named on our local cenotaph here in Tarbert, Argyll. Duncan Kerr (Assistant Cook). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 5 April , 2021 Share Posted 5 April , 2021 For the record, and in connection with the Newmarket's early service at the Dardanelles in 1915, the following two quotes are from the Mitchell Report Five Fleet sweepers, " Clacton," " Hythe," " Whitby Abbey," " Lynn " and *' Gazelle," arrived on the 14th April (1915), and " Newmarket,” “ Reindeer " and " Folkestone " later. Auxiliary sweepers are to have their proper numbers repainted with white paint. AS.1 “Newmarket.” AS.5 " Folkestone." AS.2 " Clacton." AS.6 " Hythe." AS.3 " Reindeer." AS.7 " Lynn." AS.4 “ Whitby Abbey.” AS.8 " Gazelle." [from OPERATIONS IN CONNECTION WITH LANDING OP 10th AND 11th DIVISIONS. “ Triad," 6th August, 1915. Secret. No. 49S/16.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1Hertfordshire Posted 4 October , 2021 Share Posted 4 October , 2021 In my collection is the lone Victory Medal to 4448S J. MC PHERSON. STD. R.N.R., Killed in Action HMS Newmarket, 7 July 1917. As an added note, anyone knowing the locations of his other medals, please contact me for a reunite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEASIDER Posted 3 August , 2022 Share Posted 3 August , 2022 I have a trio to M8962. A. H. BUTTERFIELD. S.S.A. R.N. who sadly killed on HMS NEWMARKET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted 26 November , 2022 Share Posted 26 November , 2022 On 24/08/2016 at 16:58, Domhnall said: Two distant relatives of mine, Donald Maciver and Norman Maciver, were lost when HMS Newmarket was hit on 17th July 1917. I was wondering if there are any photographs of the vessel anywhere, been trying for ages to find one. Does the photograph you have show anything of the vessel? On 04/08/2022 at 00:44, SEASIDER said: I have a trio to M8962. A. H. BUTTERFIELD. S.S.A. R.N. who sadly killed on HMS NEWMARKET. Norman MacIver was my great great uncle. How are you related? On 24/08/2016 at 16:58, Domhnall said: Two distant relatives of mine, Donald Maciver and Norman Maciver, were lost when HMS Newmarket was hit on 17th July 1917. I was wondering if there are any photographs of the vessel anywhere, been trying for ages to find one. Does the photograph you have show anything of the vessel? Norman Maciver was my great great uncle, do you have any photos. His sister was my great great grandmother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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